* *A New Project ~~~ Revising the Ainulindale* *

[Petty Dwarf]

I have a few more thoughts before the entire matter is settled.

§ 14... But {thou must understand, Ælfwine,} that when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty of the Holy Ones bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

§21 Thus it came to pass that of the Holy Ones some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should henceforth be contained and bounded in the World, and be within it for ever, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore{, Ælfwine,} we name them the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Aiwendil wrote:

These clearly suggest that some or much of the surrounding text is the invention of Pengolodh. That is - surely he is not simply reading Rumil's text and adding only phrases like "thou must understand, Aelfwine". He is giving an oral account, no doubt based closely on Rumil's written account, but not matching it word for word. We have so far ignored the fact that in the old version it was an oral account and in our new version it is a written one; we have not tried to wipe out Pengolodh's embellishments and reconstruct Rumil's written text because there is no way of establishing which words exactly Rumil used. Instead, we have more or less pretended that Pengolodh's oral version is exactly Rumil's written version, with only obvious first and second person phrases removed.

These could suggest Pendoloð was adding on to Rúmil at those points, but I find that doubtful. They contain big sections of the general plot which must have first occured in Rúmil's version, or else his version was severly lacking. I think those addresses to Ælfwine were used for emphasis, and to convey the feel of conversation. It's not the same situation as this Yavanna line. We know for sure it was not in Rúmil's.

But think not, Ælfwine, that the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like unto the shapes of kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at whiles they may clothe them in their own thought, made visible in forms terrible and wonderful. And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree; and the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.

Petty Dwarf wrote:

I think keeping the sentence intact as a footnote is best because the intent of the sentence is expressing the intensely personal. Pengoloð's own experience of having seen a Vala in this beyond-Treebeard shape was so striking that he had to interject it here.

Aiwendil responded:

I'm not sure that this is relevant, but I disagree. I don't see the passage as having fundamentally to do with Pengolodh at all, but rather with the Valar.

This is essentially a matter of semantics, but I don't think either of us is wrong. The example Pengoloð gives illustrates an essential facet of the nature of the Valar told in the previous sentence: they they are not bound by any one shape. But he goes further by giving an example he himself had experienced. He tells Ælfwine both what he saw (And I myself, long years agone, in the land of the Valar have seen Yavanna in the likeness of a Tree) which sufficiently illustrates the point that the Valar can clothe themselves in shapes different than elf or man. He then goes further, adding his appreciation of that form (the beauty and majesty of that form could not be told in words, not unless all the things that grow in the earth, from the least unto the greatest, should sing in choir together, making unto their queen an offering of song to be laid before the throne of Ilúvatar.) which is a personal judgement based on the experience. Another person, an orc let's say, might have a different judgement.

The entire passage has a great deal to do with Pengoloð and the Ainulindalë itself. It gives us a glimpse of Pengoloð's character we may lose if we take the experience away from him. CT deleted the character completely, we should try not to. That Pengoloð saw Yavanna in tree-form we know. But was he the only one or was he with others? We can't answer that with the information we have. The "some" with which you would replace "I myself" does that in effect.
Also he saw Yavanna "long years agone": an indication that this incident, and maybe even the Rúmilian Ainulindalë existed far earlier than this account we're creating.

Remember, Rúmil and his Ainulindalë never left Valinor. The version Tolkien wrote was an oral retelling of that by Pengoloð sometime after the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain. TftE's version is based on the assumption that this is a work translated by Bilbo in Rivendell, which must have been written by an Exile.

[Findegil]

Did I miss some thing?
When the text of Antione apeared (for a view days), I thought that the all problems we had with the Ainulindalë were settled. But revisiting this thread I think that the issue of the Yavanna as a tree was not finally resolved. With the text readed (hopefully) as Antione did provide it, are there still no renegades for a such a elegant conclusion as a footnote did provide?

And reading the text and its companions in the HoME I found a heavy problem: The First battle of the Valar as told in the Ainulindalë was later changed in The Annals of Aman. Beside the fact that the discription in AAm is much more elaborated then in the Ainulindalë and thus sweets the overall goal of the project better there are some big differences:
- Utumno was in AAm build before the assult on Almaren and the Lamps.
- The Valar did pursuit Melkor at once, but cuold not overcome him. They did come out of Valinor at Melkor for the first time at the War of Powers.

Beside these project issuse I have a question of understanding: As its stands in the Sil77 and the Ainulindalë I got the understanding that Melkor at first did dispute Manwë's Kingship and was driven from the World. Then he returned and the First war of the Valar occured which was ended when Tulkas chased Melkor again from the world.
But now after reading all the texts again I think that view was wrong. It seems to me know that the end of Rúmils Ainulindalë, the addition Pengolodh and the first §§ in Of Valinor and the two Trees do discribe the same event thrice: the First war of the Valar that following the Annals of Aman lasted 1500 VY before Tulkas came in and drove Melkor out.
Do you think that I have got the story right now or do you think that Melkor left the world two times?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Aside from the problem of „Yavanna as a tree“ I have already mentioned in my last post the changed course of the story in the first war of the Valar. I this post I will give the changes that in my view are necessary. I am not sure that we can stick to the assumption that what we produce here is the existing Middle-Earth version of the Ainulidalë. It seems necessar yto me to take up big parts of the Annal of Aman (Aam) to creat the text that serves our over-all goal (a most rich and canon friendly Version of all the story). But this issue seems to me not more than a philosophical discussion. Anyway if the assumption that the text has existence in Middle-Earth does hinder us to solve a canonical problem or take up more rich versions of the story we must skip that assumption.

Since the issue is concerned with the discription of the first war of the Valar, I will start my discussion with §31 in Pengoloð’s addition:

§31 This tale {I have heard also among}<was learned from> the lore masters [of the Noldor] in ages past. {For they tell us that the}
The war began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth, and for long Melkor had the upper hand. Ai-1W-01 <AAm And Melkor wrought great ruin with fire and deadly cold and marred all that the other Valar made.> But in the midst of the war a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar, hearing in Ai-1W-02{the far heaven}<AAm distant regions of Eä> that there was battle in the Little Kingdom. And he came like a storm of laughter and loud song, and Earth shook under his great golden feet. So came Tulkas, the Strong and the Merry, whose anger passeth like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it{.} Ai-1W-03 <AAm , but he turned a face of' anger towards Melkor; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his mirth,>{And Melkor was shaken by the laughter of Tulkas,} and fled from the Earth; and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after. {In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and they planted seeds; and since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of Light for the enlightening of the Middle-earth which they had built amid the Encircling Seas, and they set the lamps upon high pillars, loftier far than any of the mountains of the later days. And one they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Foros; and the other they raised in the South, and it was called Hyaras. And the light of the lamps of the Valar went out over the Earth so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day. Then the seeds that the Valar had planted began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, grasses, and flowers of many colours, and trees whose blossom was like snow upon the mountains but whose feet were wrapped in the shadow of their mighty limbs. And beasts and birds came forth and dwelt in the green plains or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the darkness of the woods. And richest was the growth of plant and beast in the midmost parts of the Earth where the lights of both lamps met and were blended. And there upon the isle of Almaren in a great lake was the first dwelling of the gods, when all things were new, and green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers.}
In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires had been subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulë wrought two mighty lamps for the enlightenment of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the Encircling Seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.
Then the seeds that Yavanna had sown began swiftly to sprout and to burgeon, and there arose a multitude of growing things great and small, mosses and grasses, and great ferns, and trees whose tops were crowned with cloud as they were living mountains, but whose feet were wrapped in a green twilight. And beasts {[struck out: and birds]} came forth and dwelt in the grassy plains, or in the rivers and the lakes, or walked in the shadow of the woods. As yet no flower had bloomed nor any bird had sung, for these things waited still their time in the bosom of {Palúrien}[Kementári]; but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. And there upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}. Ai-1W-04 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.
And it came to pass that at last the Valar were content, and they were minded to rest a while from labour and watch the growth and unfolding of the things that they had devised and begun. Therefore Manwe ordained a great feast, and summoned all the Valar and the queens of the Valar unto Almaren, together with all their folk. And they came at his bidding; but Aule, it is said, and Tulkas were weary; for the craft of Aule and the strength of Tulkas had been at the service of all without ceasing in the days of their labour.
Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule. And afar off in the dark places Melkor was filled with hatred, being jealous of the work of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the voids of Ea that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong. And seeing now his time he drew near again unto Arda, and looked down upon it, and the beauty of the Earth in its Spring filled him the more with hate.
Now therefore the Valar were gathered upon Almaren and feasted and made merry, fearing no evil, and because of the light of llluin they did not perceive the shadow in the North that was cast from afar by Melkor; for he was grown dark as the Night of the Void. And it is sung that in that feast of the Spring of Arda Tulkas espoused Nessa the sister of Orome, and Vana robed her in her flowers, and she danced before the Valar upon the green grass of Almaren.
Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come. And he passed, therefore, over the Walls of the Night with his host, and he came to Middle-earth in the North; and the Valar were not aware of him.
Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the light of Illuin was dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew nought of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred >{
§32 But at length Melkor returned in secret, and far in the North, where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim, he made a hidden dwelling. Thence he sent forth his power and turned again to evil much that had been well begun}; so that green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, and the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. {And when he saw his time, Melkor revealed himself, and he made war again on the Valar his brethren; and he threw down the Lamps, and a new darkness fell, and all growth ceased. And in the fall of the Lamps, which were very great, the seas were lifted up in fury, and many lands were drowned. Then the Valar were driven from their abode in Almaren, and they removed from the Middle-earth, and made their home in the uttermost West, in Aman the Blessed, and they fortified it against the onslaught of Melkor. Many mansions they built in that land upon the borders of the world which is since called Valinor, whose western marges fall into the mists of the Outer Sea, and whose fences against the East are the Pelóre Valion, the Mountains of Valinor, highest upon Earth.
Thence they came at last with a great host against Melkor, to wrest from him the rule of the Middle-earth; but he now had grown in malice and in strength and was master of many monsters and evil things, so that they could not at that time overcome him utterly, nor take him captive; and he escaped from their wrath, and lay hid until they had departed. Then he returned to his dwelling in the North, and there built for himself a mighty fortress, and delved great caverns underground secure from assault, and he gathered to him many lesser powers that seeing his greatness and growing strength were now willing to serve him; and the name of that evil fastness was Utumno.} Ai-1W-05 <AAm Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding-place. But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared. And he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and he cast down their pillars, and broke their lamps. Then in the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.
In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwe as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Iluvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the gods had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West; and since Melkor had returned to Middle-earth, and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the Sea they raised the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. And above all the mountains of the Pelori was that height which was called Taniquetil, upon whose summit Manwe set his throne. But behind the walls of the Pelori the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor. There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the gods dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea.>

From §33 to the end the Ainulidalë can stand as it was edited by Antione. The dubbleing of the second part of §31 came to pass by the changes from Ainulidalë C to Ainulindalë D and is only a small error in the editing process, I have corrected it.
Some remarks to my changes:
Ai-1W-01:
This is only a addition for a more detailed story.

Ai-1W-02:
I replaced “in far Heaven” because it seems to me that it could refer to the Timless Halls of the Ainur. The phrase from AAm is at least much claerer in this respect.

Ai-1W-03
I foundthat it is significant that in AAm Melkor is afraid of Tulkas mirth and anger.

Ai-1W-04
Here we start with the real points. The story of the feast is missing in the Ainulindalë. And also the spies of Melkor with Sauron as their chief. Also we must have the building of Utumno before the war.

Ai-1W-05
In the Ainulindalë the war was much more successful for Melkor: He drove out the Valar that could not even overcome him when they a bit later returned from Valinor. We must provide the later story were Melkor was succesful only in distroying what his brethern had made, but was himself driven into hidding at Utumno by Tulkas and that the Valar could not overcome him because they needed much of their power for the saving of their works.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think you have discovered the reason that CRT chopped off the end of the Ainulindale and moved that material into "Of the Beginning of Days".

I wonder if this may be the best approach for us as well.

[Findegil]

Yes this might have been the reason for Christopher Tolkien to remove this part of the Ainulindalë. But do we follow him in this move? If we do so it will become even harder to make the additions of Pengoloð to the text of the Music of the Ainur work.
This was also the reason why Antione wanted to join the discussion of the first chapter Of Valinor and the two Trees / Of the Beginning of Days with that of the Ainulindalë and the Valaquenta.

We must ask ourself why did JRR Tolkien place the story of the first War of the Valar at that place and not at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion.
As JRR Tolkien left it, the Quenta Silmarillion starts after a short intro with the creation of the Trees which were the ultimate source of the light of the Silmaril. I think that this was desiered by JRR Tolkien.

But that does not force us to do the same. We have already left the real goal and structer of the Quenta Silmarillion far behind by taking up very elaborated tales that do not premarily deal with the story of the Silmarils (e.g. the Narn i chîn Húrin).

But this additions in the later course of the Quenta Silmarillion we will mostly indicat, would we do the same here? I don't think we could do that with out some very artifical source info. Thus I think the First War is better left were it is, an addition to the Ainulindalë "told" by Pengoloð. This would also in some degree prevent the misunderstanding that I had when reading the Sil77, of Melkor leaving Arda two times.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Having now read your additions from the Annals, I tend to agree with them. Unfortunately, I still believe that we cannot use the Yavanna as a tree line in a footnote. I think that if it is not in the main text, then we should drop it.

[Findegil]

It might seem that I am turning up ervry old thread I can find, but well I found a problem:

§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are reborn among their children. ...

The concept of rebirth was later skip by Tolkien (see "The History of Middle-Earth"; Volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring"; Part Four:"Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth"; Appendix: "'The Converse of Manwë and Eru'" and the later conception of Elvish reincarnation).
I think we should change the sentence thus:

§42 ... For the Eldar die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered in the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence often they return and are {reborn among their children}[reincarnated]. ...

Respectfully
Findegil