Windy...cold... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nimikôi Angarauko · 03-23-2004, 03:04 PM

well im gonna take a more symbolic view towards the wind and personnally i dont think one of the omnipotent powers would have the arrogance to mock the noldor in their day of greatest defeat. IF, special emphasis on if, it was manwe who sent the wind it wouldnt have been like a parent scolding a disobiedent child it would be on of sorrow for the lose and waste of so many good fellows. Now to my point on the IF, it may not have been manwe or the other powers weaping for the lose but the world itself and as we all know Tolkien was quite the pacifist so it would be an excellent literary tool saying that the world itself weeps and mourns for the dead and lost. Next point, it may not be a mournful wind but more of a statement to those left not to despair and that there is still hope and too keep pushing on considering that often wind is symbolic of change in many tales and stories, ie in the War of the Ring just as the winds change help comes unlooked for. This wing was probably more of a statement to Melkor then to the Noldor saying basically you have one the battle but the war is hardly through. and thats my two cents

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-23-2004, 06:59 PM

On a linked theme, here is a thread discussing the symbolic use of weather in Tolkien's works:

The Symbolic Significance of Weather

HerenIstarion · 03-24-2004, 12:17 AM

Quote:

wonder if Tolkien approved of Jung's theories.

I seem to recall that Tolkien (and Inklings in general) approved of Jung as opposed to Freud. I could not find the clear statement in the letters or elswhere, but it haunts the back of my mind as thing once read and marked for remembrance

. but forgotten alas. Maybe it was Lewis' biography, no way of telling right now.

Nilpaurion Felagund · 03-24-2004, 02:47 AM

Welcome to the Downs, Nimikôi Angarauko.

Elenrod puts on the hat of a Morgoth's advocate.

Quote:

...i don't think one of the omnipotent powers would have the arrogance to mock the noldor in their day of greatest defeat.

It's not a mockery...it could be seen as more of a scolding. The Noldor still holding on to that last shred of pride instead of turning to the only one who could really stop Morgoth.

davem · 03-24-2004, 03:22 AM

I'm not sure how far one can push the Jungian conection. Jung's Archetypes are basically biological in nature. Synchronicity may play some part in the Great Storm of Notion Club & the Great Storm of the real world, both of which happen in 1987, but I'm not too sure. Its certainly one of the wierdest conections between the Secondary & Primary worlds.

From a Jungian point of view, storms (& Eagles) could be seen to symbolise an 'irruption' from the Collective Unconscious/spiritual level of reality into the mundane. Manwe's presence is constant throughout LotR - storms, Eagles, &, of course, Gandalf himself, one of the Maiar who served Manwe. That's all probably in the thread Saucepan Man has pointed us to, but I haven't got time to read through it at the moment!

doug*platypus · 04-06-2004, 05:39 AM

Ah, Nilpaurion Felagund, well observed. I'm now on my 6th (ish) reading of The Silmarillion and I'm finding countless small passages such as this taking on incredible significance. For a fairly small tome, it contains a huge amount of action and events. I personally missed the significance of the wind the first time round, but I would bet that yes it does mean something.

In my humble opinion it sounds more like an action of anger and frustration. A rebuke and a defiance of Melkor, whose despotic and sadistic actions become more evil as the tale unfolds. To me it seems to be an indication that the Valar may still be stirred to wrath against him. Of course, such emotions really are against the nature of Manwë, and I could be horribly wrong.

Quote:

Gandalf himself, one of the Maiar who served Manwe.

Although Gandalf did serve the purposes of Manwë, wasn't he actually a Maia of Lórien, who did the odd job for Nienna now and then? Righto, off to that weather thread...

davem · 04-06-2004, 07:07 AM

Quote:

'Although Gandalf did serve the purposes of Manwë, wasn't he actually a Maia of Lórien, who did the odd job for Nienna now and then? Righto, off to that weather thread...'

Encyc of Arda gives:

A Maia of the people of Manwë and Varda, Olórin was said to be one of the wisest of his order. He came to Middle-earth in the Third Age in the guise better known as Gandalf.

Don't have the books to hand, so I (& E of A) may both be wrong.

03-23-2004, 06:59 PM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	The Symbolic Significance of Weather On a linked theme, here is a thread discussing the symbolic use of weather in Tolkien's works: The Symbolic Significance of Weather __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

04-06-2004, 07:07 AM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Quote: 'Although Gandalf did serve the purposes of Manwë, wasn't he actually a Maia of Lórien, who did the odd job for Nienna now and then? Righto, off to that weather thread...' Encyc of Arda gives: A Maia of the people of Manwë and Varda, Olórin was said to be one of the wisest of his order. He came to Middle-earth in the Third Age in the guise better known as Gandalf. Don't have the books to hand, so I (& E of A) may both be wrong. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

03-23-2004, 03:04 PM	#1
Nimikôi Angarauko Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: my realm is in the Void Posts: 20	well im gonna take a more symbolic view towards the wind and personnally i dont think one of the omnipotent powers would have the arrogance to mock the noldor in their day of greatest defeat. IF, special emphasis on if, it was manwe who sent the wind it wouldnt have been like a parent scolding a disobiedent child it would be on of sorrow for the lose and waste of so many good fellows. Now to my point on the IF, it may not have been manwe or the other powers weaping for the lose but the world itself and as we all know Tolkien was quite the pacifist so it would be an excellent literary tool saying that the world itself weeps and mourns for the dead and lost. Next point, it may not be a mournful wind but more of a statement to those left not to despair and that there is still hope and too keep pushing on considering that often wind is symbolic of change in many tales and stories, ie in the War of the Ring just as the winds change help comes unlooked for. This wing was probably more of a statement to Melkor then to the Noldor saying basically you have one the battle but the war is hardly through. and thats my two cents

03-24-2004, 03:22 AM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I'm not sure how far one can push the Jungian conection. Jung's Archetypes are basically biological in nature. Synchronicity may play some part in the Great Storm of Notion Club & the Great Storm of the real world, both of which happen in 1987, but I'm not too sure. Its certainly one of the wierdest conections between the Secondary & Primary worlds. From a Jungian point of view, storms (& Eagles) could be seen to symbolise an 'irruption' from the Collective Unconscious/spiritual level of reality into the mundane. Manwe's presence is constant throughout LotR - storms, Eagles, &, of course, Gandalf himself, one of the Maiar who served Manwe. That's all probably in the thread Saucepan Man has pointed us to, but I haven't got time to read through it at the moment!