Doriath, the doom weaver. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 03-16-2004, 03:17 AM

Manipulative is maybe the wrong word. The question is , how far will Illuvatar permit men to go? In the Athrabeth Finrod tells Andreth that Illuvatar will not allow Morgoth to deprive him of his own - ie Elves & Men. So, to what extent will he intervene if, under Morgoth's influence, men are being lost?

Also, if Illuvatar has a 'plan', an intention, for his creatures, will he allow his creatures to prevent his plan coming into being? Absolute free will is impossible, as the nature of reality imposes restrictions on what we can & cannot do.

Would Illuvatar have allowed the Ring to fall into the hands of Sauron, or Frodo or anyone else to claim it & become a new Sauron? Isn't the destruction of the Ring brought about by the direct intervention of Illuvatar? And isn't that an example of Him manipulating events, if not people? But if Illuvatar manipulates events to prevent Frodo claiming the Ring, isn't he therby taking away Frodo's freedom to claim it? He's not manipulating Frodo into throwing the Ring into the Fire, but he's certainly taking away his freedom to claim it for his own.

03-16-2004, 03:17 AM	#12
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Manipulative is maybe the wrong word. The question is , how far will Illuvatar permit men to go? In the Athrabeth Finrod tells Andreth that Illuvatar will not allow Morgoth to deprive him of his own - ie Elves & Men. So, to what extent will he intervene if, under Morgoth's influence, men are being lost? Also, if Illuvatar has a 'plan', an intention, for his creatures, will he allow his creatures to prevent his plan coming into being? Absolute free will is impossible, as the nature of reality imposes restrictions on what we can & cannot do. Would Illuvatar have allowed the Ring to fall into the hands of Sauron, or Frodo or anyone else to claim it & become a new Sauron? Isn't the destruction of the Ring brought about by the direct intervention of Illuvatar? And isn't that an example of Him manipulating events, if not people? But if Illuvatar manipulates events to prevent Frodo claiming the Ring, isn't he therby taking away Frodo's freedom to claim it? He's not manipulating Frodo into throwing the Ring into the Fire, but he's certainly taking away his freedom to claim it for his own.