Within a days march...

[lindil]

I was reading Tom Shippey's [excellent] 'The Road to Middle-Earth' today when I came across the quote of Aragorn in the Council of Elrond wherein he says,

' "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a days march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.'

Shippey rightly points out that we do not know whom these foes are.

While the Barrow Wights seem an obvious choice, it is not likely at all that the Rangers had any power over them [saving perhaps Aragorn, but even that doubtful].

Perhaps the allusion is to Bombadil watching over the Wights - even though Aragorn has told us in other places that the Rangers guard both the Shire and Bree.

Fornost is out as it is futher away than weather top, and Gandalf alludes to Rangers going there anyway.

Shippey throws out,

Wood-orcs?, trolls?, killer Huorns?, ettens from the high fells?,

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I lean toward Aragorn conflating the Dunedains' and Bombadils' guardianship.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 3:20 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Earendilyon]

I always thought that passage referred to evil beings, like maybe trolls or orcs or the like; minions of Sauron who roamed the country side again. IIRC there's mention of trouble 'round the borders of the Shire in the first chapter of the LotR.

[mark12_30]

The Nazgul encamped at Sarn Ford. "The Rangers barred their way; but it was a task beyond the power of the Dunedain..." Unfinished tales, page 356.

Second version: page 364: "But the black captain established a camp at Andrath where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow Downs and the South Downs." It continues, to note that the Black Captain stayed there several days:

...and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and On the Barrow-downs.

Looking at the Map, Sarn Ford looks like more than a days' march. (Days' march to whom? The Nazgul on hurseback or the rangers?) (Where's Andrath exactly?)

Anyway, somebody should turn that into an RPG for sure. Or at least a fanfic...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:17 AM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[lindil]

You may have nailed it Helen, I had not considered the transient presence of the Ringwratihs and Aragprn's knowledge of their southern 'encampment'.

I was fixated on more permanent or semi permanent denizens, like the trolls in the Hobbit, or the Barrow Wights.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

According to the Index of the Unfinished Tales:

Andrath: 'Long Climb', defile between the Barrow-downs and the South Downs throough which the North-South Road (Greenway) passed

You can also see it in the map, just below Bree, along the Geenway [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Altariel]

I always figured it was the Nazgul wandering about... since there was the mention of the freezing of hearts, and that put me in mind of the Black Breath... Also, the Nazgul have a way of laying towns in ruin, or at least corrupting them beyond repair... Minas Ithil, for example?

There's also Barrow-wights, but could they leave their barrows and lay a town in ruin? Or am I taking Aragorn's comment too literally? Aaah, Aragorn... he's probably my favourite Tolkien character, you know, other than Feanor. Anyway, onward...

Other than that, I just figured it was some mysterious evil thing. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Something that was intended to be mysterious? It added to the mystery of Middle-Earth for me...

I am so sorry for using the word "mystery" or variations thereof three times in three sentences... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:27 PM December 24, 2003: Message edited by: Altariel ]

[Finwe]

"Mystery" is a good thing. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


The strength of the combined Nazgul was too great for the Dunedain to beat back. As it was, some of the Nazgul managed to chase away some of the Dunedain guarding the Shire, which was how they managed to get in. The Dunedain most likely knew that the Nazgul were abroad, and thus, sent the greatest of their number *coughcoughAragorncoughcough* to the place where they would be expected. It seems like an intelligent thing to do. Send your strongest to face the enemy's strongest, which eliminates casualties.

[Kalimac]

I would guess the Nazgul, since they're enough to freeze the blood of far stronger men than Butterbur. Though, after their experience at the Prancing Pony, the Nazgul are a lot closer to him than a day's march; more like ten minutes' march (ride) or so.

He could also just mean the general drift of unsavoury characters coming up the Greenway - that was already happening by that point, wasn't it? Sort of a "He thinks they're bad, he should see what it would be like without us to pursue them constantly."

Or he could just be speaking poetically, the same way "forty days' march" doesn't necessarily mean exactly forty days, and is meant simply to imply a long time. Similarly, "within a day's march" could just mean "Closer than he wants, and capable of getting there quickly."

[doug*platypus]

I'd just like to point out, first of all that a day's march for Strider, going about at a great pace on those long shanks of his, covers quite a considerable distance.

Secondly, I'd be interested to find out exactly what would be enough to freeze the heart of our worthy Barliman. It is fortunate that he and Fatty Bolger had not changed places, or the Enemy may have found out much to the detriment of the Fellowship. One of Butterbur's first comments after the nightly visitation in Bree is:

good bolsters ruined and all!

I don't think he would have coped too well with facing down three Nazgul, considering this reaction to the fate of his pillows. I doubt that anybody in Middle-Earth lived more than five minutes' brisk walk away from foes that would freeze Butterbur's heart.

[symestreem]

But Butterbur HAD encountered the Nazgul. Strider knew this. The implication is that the Rangers prevent this unknown foe from entering Bree. But they do enter Bree, so I don't think Strider is talking about the Nazgul. If you take it in context, Aragorn is talking about what the Dunedain have always done, and they haven't always been guarding against the Nazgul. Earlier in that speech he says "But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they flee from us." Dark things from houseless hills seems to imply barrow-wights. And in RotK, Butterbur is talking about how things have changed since the Rangers left: "For there's been worse than robbers about. Wolves were howling around the fences last winter. And there's dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things that it makes the blood run cold to think of." Blood run cold- heart freeze? Kind of seems like the same think that Aragorn was talking about. So these "foes" might barrow-wights, wolves, robbers, or unkown dark shapes in the woods. Bree is pretty close to the Old Forest on the map, about 20 miles, which is a day's march.
Perhaps these things were left over from the Witch-king's rule, and crept south for new prey? They might do so especially if their former king was near.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I had thought that Aragorn was referring to any number of scary beasts, probably around the Old Forest.

And a day's march for Aragorn would probably be over double the distance that Butterbur could march in the same time!

[Finwe]

Most likely, it was just a figure of speech. I'm sure that deep down inside, the Dunedain slightly resented the fact that they were guarding a bunch of people who made fun of them all the time, and ostracized them, from foes that would wipe them out in under five seconds flat. Anyone would.

[The Saucepan Man]

Secondly, I'd be interested to find out exactly what would be enough to freeze the heart of our worthy Barliman.

Or rather what wouldn't freeze his heart [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . Much as I love the amiable barman as a character, I agree that he was unlikely to be of much use in a pinch.

I doubt that Aragorn was talking about the Nazgul for the reason that symestreem mentioned. He seems to be talking about things that the Dunedain have been guarding the folk of the Shire and the surrounding lands from in the past, and the Nazgul had only just appeared in those parts. Also, as Finwe stated, the Rangers were not able to prevent the Ringwraiths from entering the Shire.

I don't think it was the Barrow-Wights either. I get the sense that (like many of us here [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) they were unable to leave the Barrow Downs, and so the surrounding area would not need guarding against them.

So I would guess that he was talking about more general horrors wandering in the wild areas, such as Trolls, Wolves (possibly even Wargs, since they were abroad in Eregion) and maybe Orcs on raiding parties from the Misty Mountains. Any of those would probably be enough to freeze poor old Butterbur's heart (and, indeed, mine [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

[Kalimac]

Hmmm. Now I really have no idea! It's important to remember that Aragorn also points out that these unknown foes could lay waste to Bree if they wanted to, and had the chance. Nazgul aren't really the types, and I don't see Wights doing the trick either - they don't really seem like the burning and pillaging types. I'd have to guess random vandals who have been generally displaced and don't mind a bit of robbery and violence wherever they go.

[Finwe]

Kalimac, perhaps you're referring to the same type of vandals that later entered the Shire, and helped do Sharkey's bidding? They certainly seem to be the type who would enjoy a bit of pillaging and plunder.

[The Saucepan Man]

perhaps you're referring to the same type of vandals that later entered the Shire, and helped do Sharkey's bidding

Buttebur might not have been the most stout-hearted of fellows, but I hardly think that ruffians of this type would "freeze his heart". Doubtless they would daunt him, but it seems to me that Aragorn's words are implying something a little more out of the ordinary (for Bree folk, that is). Trolls, Wargs, and possibly Orcs, fit the bill for me.

[Kalimac]

One thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that Butterbur is NOT a hobbit! (Ridiculous, after reading the book upwards of 20 times, but there it is). No, I don't think Sharkey's men would do the trick - they're basically glorified Bill Ferny types (heck, one of them IS Bill Ferny!) and Butterbur doesn't seem particularly frightened of him. I get the impression that the Shire didn't really attract the cream of the crop, thugwise - it's a nice, fertile place but it's short on massive treasure hordes and rich prizes that you can get quickly and then trundle away. Nobody lording it over the Shire, except Saruman, is going to get much out of it except good food, pipeweed, and the fun of kicking little people around, and you have to stick around for that.

I wasn't thinking of Wargs, myself, but that's an obvious answer. Another one would be that there's probably considerable unrest in the Misty Mountains these days, and while those are about a month away, Orcs might have been trickling out for a while, sensing unrest and trouble, and by that point they could easily be within a day of Bree. For some reason I also had an image of stray warriors from conquered countries, fleeing to the northwest and not very picky about how they get food and shelter, but I don't think there's a real basis for that.

But no, not just the Ferny-types - they're basically the thugs' Rookie League.

[The Saucepan Man]

thugwise

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

and the fun of kicking little people around

And I suppose that's how Soccer (or Football to you Brits) was invented in the Shire? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Saucepan Man - hey, it's a legitimate coinage [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Finwe - Well, if the Bullroarer invented golf, why shouldn't the Shire be the source of soccer/football as well? Though I'd hate to credit the ruffians with any halfway-decent innovations...

[Olorin_TLA]

Ruffians are sports fans!