Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spirit...

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

I'll have to read the pertinent texts before I can intelligently comment.

But what I'm saying is that it seems to me that as a devout Catholic, Tolkien might have rejected the connection of the Fall, if it was made by explaining original human immortality away as a lie, to his tales as bordering on sacrilege.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ....in both of those stories mortality is not a result of the fall, but an inherent quality of Men. <hr></blockquote>

Basically, to assert that the Fall was not due to Morgoth/Satan, and was due instead to some self-corruption of the Children of Illuvatar/God, and to assert that the Fall itself had nothing to do with Death, is incorrect.

And to Fall, there must be something to Fall from. Grace and Immortality. The advent of Death comes with the Fall. Death (in Middle-earth) is the Gift of Illuvatar.

Why should Death be deemed a Gift?

If Man had fallen, and was become corrupted and more corruptible, physically and spiritually, then Death would indeed be a blessing and a gift.

Without yet reading the text, I can only say that the treatment of the Fall you seem to be interpreting is opposed to the understandings and sensibilities of a devout Catholic (as I understand such things).

So which came first, the Fall or the Gift?

If the Gift came before the Fall, then did Illuvatar give it to mitigate the predestined Fall?

Did Morgoth make use of the Gift to induce the Fall? (You cite &quot;fear and bribes.&quot; I'll have to read this thing!)

Or did the Gift come after the Fall? That makes more sense to me. I'll try to read this bit of Legendarium soon.

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