Sauron vs Gandalf and Aragorn in RotK?

[Dynaviir]

Don't hate me.. but what are your ideas about Sauron being present at the Black Gate and fighting the armies?<P>I know this is a change from the books, but in reality, it's only a minor one, as all Sauron does in the book is sit in his throne room and worry. I think this would add to the epic feel. In the film, it would be, in my opinion, far more entertaining to see Sauron with his mace again, fighting the Rohirrim, Elves and Gondorians. I know many people would be angry at this, but in my opinion I think this would only serve to make the film more interesting.<P>I know it's probably unlikely, and that it's a change most people probably wouldn't like to see, but I would like to see the Lord of the Rings himself having a present role in the movie. It would also keep the general audiences very interested.<P>Any thoughts on this?<P>*hides from the inevitable pitchforking*

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I know this is a change from the books, but in reality, it's only a minor one <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually it won't be that minor of a change. A minor change is, say, having Merry & Pippin be present at the Council of Elrond, in the name of speeding up the departure. Having Sauron show up isn't really a minor change. I'm not to crazy about the whole idea (as you've probably been able to tell by me posts in other threads), but I don't think I'll die over it. Still, I just think it'll come out lamely, & <I>that's </I> the main thing I want to avoid.

[Shy Hobbit]

I'll hold out my opinion until I see what they're actually going to do with this film

[HCIsland]

I have no problem with Sauron being in the film in a physical form in Barad-dur. Short scenes of him plotting and ordering lackies, that are much the same as most of Saruman's scenes, I think would be fine.<P>Him showing up at the Black Gates is a major departure and quite a change in character as he tends to let others do his dirty work unless things become truly desperate (which they're not until he realizes where the Ring is, and then it's too late for him to do anything). It depends on how it comes across. Is it possible to taught Sauron enough to get him to show himself? I don't know. I'd have to wait to see it, if indeed it even happens.<P>Though, the image of him pummelling Aragorn does have it's appeal. <P>H.C.

[Arwen Evenstar the Fair]

I heard that Sauron is going to be seen at the black gate, not just as an eye either.

[The Only Real Estel]

Arwen Evenstar, he will be. HC & I just brought up a bunch of quotes on another thread on the subject, although now I forget what the name is .

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I've heard rumors that Sauron falls for the "Aragorn has the Ring" gambit and comes out to wipe the floor with him. It *is* a big change, but it probably won't bother me. For most moviegoers, seeing Sauron "in the flesh" (so to speak) is more exciting than watching him be a flaming eyeball. It's also more obvious that way that Sauron is completely absorbed in the battle until it's too late. Finally, it gives Aragorn another "drum solo" moment. I mean, after the Hornburg and the Pellenor fields, anything short of Sauron on the battlefield is going to feel anticlimactic. <P>What do you think?<P>-Lily

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that it was HC who made the point on another thread that Sauron will take Saruman's place as the main villain in RotK. In the first two films, the focus is on Saruman. It is him that we see confronting Gandalf, amassing and ordering his army and obstructing the Fellowship (Caradhras), and it is his forces that attack Helm's Deep in the climax to TTT. Apart from the opening of FotR, Sauron (although still the primary villain) remains in the background and is represented only through his minions and the infamous burning red eye.<P>Without the Scouring of the Shire, Saruman is likely to be killed off early in TTT, probably following his confrontation by Gandalf at Orthanc. So the focus will have to move to Sauron and it therefore seems almost certain that Jackson will want to establish him as a physical presence in the film. I believe that we are therefore likely to see much more of him in RotK.<P>Whether he will confront Aragorn at the Black Gate I do not known. The rumours that Estel refers to do persuade me that this is a very real possibility. And film convention tends to involve a final confrontation between the main hero and the villain as part of the finale. The main hero (in the 'action' sense) will of course be Aragorn (and a final confrontation between Sauron and the other main hero, Frodo, would, to my mind, be a big mistake). Also, I tend to agree with Lily when she says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I mean, after the Hornburg and the Pellenor fields, anything short of Sauron on the battlefield is going to feel anticlimactic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The final confrontation outside the Morannon as Frodo and Sam scale Mount Doom has got to surpass all that has gone before in terms of tension building.<P>As to whether a Sauron/Aragorn confrontation will work, I agree with HC that it is best to reserve judgement. It will largely depend upon how feasible it seems in the circumstances prevailing for Sauron to take to the field and how the confrontation itself is handled. If implausible and gratuitous it could fall flat, but if done well I believe that it can provide a great climax. And, whatever Jackson's other faults may be, his film-making skills are certainly impressive. He knows his craft. So, personally, I do have a good deal of faith in his ability to create a truly tremendous finale to these films.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I do agree that this would be a major change. However, I am less optimistic about the results as you are Saucepan Man and others.<P>Our very first impression of Sauron (think back to the prologue of the Fellowship) is that he is completely powerless without the Ring. After all, he vanishes when it is cut off his finger by Isildur. I'm sure we're all aware that this in itself is faulty but nevermind.<P>Why then does Sauron, without the Ring, suddenly reappear as a physical being?<P>Another thing I'm not comfortable with is having Sauron mess Aragorn around, which seems to me a classic 'bad movie' mistake. We've all seen them. The villain pummells the hero for a good few minutes instead of actually killing him. If it does happen I hope Jackson makes it believable.<P>One question. Do any of you guys feel that what happened in the book lacked tension? Because it seems perfect to me already, even without Sauron present on the battlefield.<P>I don't know. I hope it will be done well. I'm sure it will be (I love the first 2 movies despite their 'flaws' ) I'm just slightly worried that the movie team are trying to give the story a classic 'Hollywood ending.' (If anyone at all understands what I'm trying to say then congratulations!)<p>[ August 29, 2003: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One question. Do any of you guys feel that what happened in the book lacked tension? Because it seems perfect to me already, even without Sauron present on the battlefield. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm with you here. I don't think that if Sauron doesn't show it's gonna be anticlimatic. On the contrary, I thought it much more exciting when he was this mysterious bad guy that you never saw, never knew what he was up to, except when Gandalf read his mind. But, well, if you wanna make a movie that's gonna sell, I guess you have to be more explicit than that...<P> I'm really curious how they're gonna play around the many things that happen all at once at that time: Frodo claiming the Ring, Sauron realizing his imminent doom, his armies faltering, Gollum biting off the Ring, End of Ring and Sauron. That's gonna be a tough one! Any spoilers on this?

[Sauron 666]

I read an interview with PJ on theonering.net ( i think) in which he stated emphatically that Sauron would NOT appear in physical form on the battlefield or elsewhere. He states that Sauron was always more of a symbolic caracter and he'd like to keep that intact.

[Sapphire_Flame]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...he stated emphatically that Sauron would NOT appear in physical form on the battlefield or elsewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>HALLE-FREAKIN-LUJAH!!!<P>~*~Aranel~*~

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I read an interview with PJ on theonering.net ( i think) in which he stated emphatically that Sauron would NOT appear in physical form on the battlefield or elsewhere. He states that Sauron was always more of a symbolic caracter and he'd like to keep that intact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> & when did you read this? Because he himself has alluded to the fact that he thinks Sauron needs to be shown in physical form. And there is a bunch of other evidence supporting that fact which I can bring up if I must. I'd be all for it if what you say proves true, but I don't want to get my hopes up. If you can find a quote it would be more believable.<p>[ August 29, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Horse-Maiden of the Shire]

I think that it was on the RotK preview on the TT DVD that I heard about Sauron appearing. I'm not sure, though. If it does happen, I will be quite upset. But I am a bit curious as to how Sauron would look on the battlefield. Would he look like he did at the battle of the Last Alliance, or would be have a new outfit?

[thephantomcredits]

what would determine Saurons actually physical size. In the prologue he looks about the same size as the balrog. Do maiar have some control of the size and stature.

[Sauron 666]

To Estel, i'm afraid i can't supply a direct link as i just read the interview then forgot about it. i do know for sure i read it on onering.net it was a transcript of a interview pj had a with a (the?) fanzine. Apologies. <P>Like everyone else i hope he doesn't make an appearence. But it is interesting because, i'm not sure if anyone here has mentioned it, but i think perhaps pj has misinterpreated Sauron's existence. I remember a direct quote from Gollum from TTT: 'There are 4 fingers on the black hand but those are enough...' and when Shagrat and Gorbag are arguing with each other one of them says something about Sauron 'coming himself'. Just my observations

[Maéglin]

Sauron pummelling Aragorn = bad idea in movie and book sense. <P>After all Sauron dispatched Gil-galad and Elendil with what... 1 stroke in the movies. I don't see how a Numenorean of lesser might (Aragorn) could have withstood Sauron for more than a few blows, even if he is in a weaker form.<P>It would be cool though to have Frodo destroying the ring just as Sauron is about to smite Aragorn in 1 heavy blow.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

But Sauron had the Ring when he was beating up on the Last Alliance. He won't in ROTK.<P>-Lily

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would he look like he did at the battle of the Last Alliance, or would be have a new outfit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've read that there was filming of a person fighting in the battle who was presumed to be Sauron (& later it was [I thought] confirmed that it was Sauron), but he <B>wasn't</B> wearing the same stuff he was in the Last Alliance battle.

[doug*platypus]

<B>Spoiler Ahoy</B><P>I'm not sure if the debate surrounding the appearance of Sauron is still going on as this is an old thread. But I can tell you from first hand experience (although it does mean blowing my own trumpet a bit) that Sauron DOES appear, and fights Aragorn one on one. Or at least I can say that they filmed those scenes, because I was there. I was there, Gandalf, 3000 years ago. Well, a couple of years ago.<P>In the charge of the major characters at the Battle on the Morannon, Aragorn wasn't present. I was an Orc extra, and they had Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, Legolas, Éomer and Gimli shooting their big fight scenes. Viggo was off with another unit filming scenes for the ultimate showdown. Sauron has the world's coolest flaming standard.<P>Eomer of the Rohirrim made a great point that the book didn't really need a visible, classic bad guy to have an amazing ending. Sinister eye Sauron from the book was maybe a bit disappointing but worked very well. <P>The filmmakers couldn't really get away with that, since audiences don't usually react well to something that is different from the formula. Any exception needs to be extremely well done, and it would be much more straightforward to bring out the big guy in his armour. There's precedent in Fingolfin's combat with Morgoth anyway, so we shouldn't be too upset.<P>I think that PJ and co kind of backed themselves into a corner somewhat, as well. Sauron is of course the ultimate bad guy of the trilogy, but he has was not constantly present as such in the first two movies. FOTR placed a lot (too much) of emphasis on Saruman as the villain, even crediting him with the snowstorm on Caradhras. Characters such as Lurtz and Wormtongue have only added to the confusion. ROTK will need to produce a big solid visible Sauron to reinforce the idea that he is the main enemy. <P>I think that the book needed this less, because throughout it is easier to picture him as the chief force of evil. Almost every evil person or deed is linked ultimately to Sauron. Bill Ferny ended up working for Sauron's spies, the Barrow-Wights were active because of Sauron's increasing power, and Saruman was always portrayed as inferior and subordinate to the dark lord.<P>By the way, the destruction of the Ring intervenes just as Aragorn is about to be killed. And bear in mind this is only what I've been told and seen. It could all be an elaborate hoax (as was the alternate dialogue for Darth Vader in ESB or the multiple endings of The Simpsons' Who Shot Mister Burns episode).<p>[ 6:50 PM December 09, 2003: Message edited by: doug*platypus ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<B>Another Spoiler Ahoy</B><BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR>.<BR >.<BR>.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But I can tell you from first hand experience (although it does mean blowing my own trumpet a bit) that Sauron DOES appear, and fights Aragorn one on one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From what I have read from reports on the previews, these scenes will not be in the film. Indeed, Sauron apparently has no physical presence at all (although his eye does seemingly become a searchlight ), and I have read reports suggesting that this does lessen his impact as the major villain somewhat.<P>More surprising is the absence of the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate in the theatrical version. The same reports suggest that the absence of any major villain at the Black Gate does make the Battle there a touch anti-climactic. Although the real climax, of course, takes place at Sammath Naur, and I suspect that Jackson did not want to detract from that. By all accounts, though, the Mouth will be there in the Extended Edition (although, I suspect, no Sauron).<P>The main villain of this film seems to be the Witch-King, although he of course meets his fate on the Pelennor. Apparently some large and mishapen Orc by the name of Gothmog (ring any bells? ) takes over from him, although I don't know whether he'll be at the Black Gate.<P>By the way, Doug, why don't you tell us how you looked as an Orc so that we can try to spot you at the Black Gate?

[ArisBoch]

i recognize the name gothmog, but it sure doesn't meet up to sauron or the mouth of sauron. that is a bit disappointing.

[Jjudvven]

I really hope that he(Sauron) doesn't appear. That would just be way too cheesy for words, in my humble opinion.

[Ainaserkewen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Though he cannot yet take physical form, his spirit has lost none of its potency.<BR>-Saruman to Gandalf in Orthanc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Far before the time when I glanced at the books, long before I could consider myself a LOTR fan, I saw the FOTR and heard that exact line and thought to myself, without any knowledge at all of later events, that Sauron would materialize and battle someone. The people who don't read the books, who don't know the ending or the history or any details not mentioned in the movie will be expecting Sauron to appear. It's the pattern that has been set up. Whoever said that PJ and co were backed into a corner was right, but they probably planned it that way. More of a chance for Weta workshops to show off their superior special effects.<P>-Stay Puft

[Failivrin]

i have spoken to two people who've actually seen it and neither said Sauron was at the Black Gate WOOHOO!<P>if he was though, that would be ridiculous.

[doug*platypus]

Ah... very good news. But now I think that it would be quite difficult to build up to a great climactic battle without the presence of Sauron. The book manages very well, especially with the command of Gandalf that halts everyone in their tracks, but I wonder if PJ and the writers will be able to compete with that? I don't doubt that the Sammath Naur will be a great scene, but on its own I don't think it would be enough of a climax to what has been a very long build-up to the final battle.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I totally agree with you on this. Sauron is THE BAD GUY. And yet we never see him at all, well except in the prologue. So I think this would make a great action sequence, but that is just my opinion.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't doubt that the Sammath Naur will be a great scene, but on its own I don't think it would be enough of a climax to what has been a very long build-up to the final battle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, as I said previously, I have seen this criticism levelled against this sequence in some of the reports of the preview viewings that I have read. I suspect that Jackson and co's thoughts were along the same lines as those which led them to exclude Shelob from TTT. Apart from the timing issue (Frodo and Sam encounter Shelob at the same time as the Seige of Minas Tirith), Phillipa Boyens makes the point (on one of the Extended Edition documentaries) that a climactic encounter with Shelob intercut with the climactic end to the Battle of Helm's Deep would have detracted from the impact of both. Simlarly, I can see why they may have thought that overloading the Battle at the Morannon with too much drama might detract from the power of the events unfolding at Sammath Naur. At the same time, however, I still think that an encounter between Aragorn and Sauron intercut with the struggle at the Crack of Doom <I>might</I> have worked if done correctly. <P>Still, all I have to do now is reserve judgment on how it will work out on screen for just under 7 days.