What is your opinion of the Frodo/Nazgul scence in Osgiliath?

[The Only Real Estel]

I thought it was lame. Frodo offers the ring to the Black Rider? Rrrrighttt. If you guys can limit your posts to basically I do like it or I don't like it, I'll try to post a vote total in about 2 weeks (and if you'll try not to post to many times!). <p>[ April 25, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[XPhial]

Like most scenes in the movie that involved Faramir or Osgiliath, I thought it was terrible. Truly, truly terrible.

[Nurumaiel]

To start off: I didn't like it.<P>I won't go into detail because you asked us not to, but I'm one of those people who has to say some little bit. And I'd like to comment on one of your comments.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Frodo offers the ring to the Black Rider? Rrrrighttt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This also bothered me on my first viewing of the movie, but I didn't think it could possibly be. So the second and third times I saw the movie, I paid careful attention to what Frodo's hands were doing at that scene. The conclusion: He <I>wasn't</I> offering the Nazgul the Ring. He was trying to put it on. That made me happy.<P>The basic Osgiliath scene didn't make me happy. It was totally unecessary and that scene makes a lot of people think Faramir is evil.<P>BTW, there is already a couple threads concerning this issue.<P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001441" TARGET=_blank>The Official Osgiliath Thread</A><P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001478" TARGET=_blank>The indecisive Nazgul</A><P>You might want to check them out.

[The Saucepan Man]

Faramir taking Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath - fine. <P>Frodo trying to give the Ring to the Nazgul (or put in on in front of him), swiftly followed by Faramir deciding to let them go on their way to Mordor - not at all fine.

[Katherine712]

I didn't mind the scene. It could have been better, but for what it is worth I liked it.

[The Only Real Estel]

Putting it on or offering it (it was putting it on, my bad.), I just thought it a bit lame.

[Meela]

I absolutely loved it.

[HCIsland]

As far as rating it, can I wimp out and give it an indecisive shoulder shrug? Like a 0.5 or something?<P>I think I know what PJ was trying to do here (remember all changes were done with reasons). He needed to parallel the tension going on at Isengard and Helm's Deep and I understand that you can't have things seem hopeless at Hornburg only to cut to Sam asking Faramir to pass the bread. He wanted a climax in the Frodo-Sam thread that would hold up in the movie. <P>I would like to think it could have been done better, though nothing is coming to mind.<P>H.C.

[Frodo 007]

Im with Meela on this one, it was awesome!!!

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

It was horrible, or as XPhial put it- <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> it was terrible. Truly, truly terrible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was at that point in the movie where I wondered what in Middle-earth was PJ thinking? HC, you do give a valid ossible reason, but don't you think that PJ would have more sense than that? I mean, didn't he realize that this would deeply upset Faramir fans? I think that he went overboard with changes. The two biggest mistakes that PJ made were this and the elves at Helms Deep. Elves worked ok even though it was a bad decision, but this Faramir doesn't work well into the plot even if what HC is true.<P>The main thing that I didn't like about it is that it shows Frodo succumbing to the power of the ring. That does not happen until Frodo gets to the crack of Mt. Doom. So hobbits were supposed to be this amazing creature that could resist the power of the ring for an extensive period of time, but here the hobbit gives in at Osgiliath!

[Everdawn]

Boring... boring.. i was almost asleep (not really).... GIVE US MORE HELM'S DEEP! muhahaha!

[Guinevere]

Well, the Nazgul on his winged steed was really a sight!!<BR>But otherwise I didn't like it. <BR>MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie has expressed exactly what is also my opinion.

[Catherine]

I didnt like it because it made Faramir look bad.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I mean, didn't he realize that this would deeply upset Faramir fans? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't take this the wrong way, but I would assume this concern is below making as good a movie as he can. If he thinks a change makes the film better, he's gonna do it and any other film maker would do the same.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "You shouldn't think of these movies as being The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is, and always will be, a wonderful book - one of the greatest ever written. Any films will only ever be an interpretation of the book. In this case my interpretation." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That quote is from Jackson in an interview with Ain't It Cool News well before the release of the first film.<P>H.C.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I despised the scene in Osgiliath.<P>I, like HC, see <I>why</I> PJ made the change. But he didn't work with what was already there in the books. He could have created the same tension at Minas Morgul. In the Books, Frodo basically runs into the King of the Nazguls there, as the armies empty out of that city, and was rescued by Gollum and Sam. It was perfect. Amp it up a little, and it was just the tension PJ needed.<P>Another mistake is building Gollum's CGI character, without developing the relationships between Frodo/Sam/Gollum. And instead of deepening the characterization of Frodo -- who becomes much stronger in the Books at this point -- he's portrayed him as very weak. I can't tell if it's PJ or Elijah who's at fault. But one things clear: it's not going to be surprising when Frodo cracks at Mt. Doom. In the movie, he's already broken.<P>I add that Elijah Wood really, really blows in that Osgiliath scene. I call it the 'virgin sacrifice.' <P>- Maril

[*Varda*]

I feel the same way as a lot of people. While I can see, and understand why PJ felt it necessary to make a change, it was just done badly. Very badly. <P>I objected to Frodo being taken to Osgiliath in the first place, but it just got worse. Not only did Frodo dangle the ring in the Nazgul's face, in which case the Nazgul would probably have killed him and taken it before Sam knocked Frodo out of the way, it just portrayed him as being far too weak. <P>Frodo didn't really become so weak until he was in Mordor, and even then he wasn't that stupid. I also objected to the complete turnaround in Faramir's character, from being portrayed as evil, to suddenly letting him go off to Mordor.<P>All in all..a bad scene. PJ could have found some other means of achieving a suitable climax in that part of the movie.<P>And yes, I rambled.

[The Only Real Estel]

Fodo said in Ithielin,"If I put it on, he'll know, he'll see!" he resisted the temptation well. Perhaps he thought the Dark Lord and his Black Rider minions wouldn't see when he tried to put it on three feet away from on of the Nazgul...go figure. Also, I doubt an arrow being shot into the Black Riders cool looking steed would stop the Black Rider from calling his buddies to the scene (although it might've put <I>HIM</I> out of the action, remember: Legolas killed on of the 'beasts on wings' by shooting an arrow into him.) <p>[ April 26, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Legolas killed on of the 'beasts on wings' by shooting an arrow into him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, no one knows if it was a Nazgul or not. It seems to be what Tolkien was getting at by Frodo's view. Legolas admitted he didn't know what he hit. And even if it was a nazgul, he probably only hit the beast the ringwraith rode in on. He might have killed it, and might not have. If it was a ringwraith and he did hit him, he did not kill him. But why am I so critical of this? I have no clue. ???

[Frodo Baggins]

mmm True true, very true.<P>I think what really bugged me to death at that point was that our dear Faramir was changed from the saintly Wizard's pupil who would not pick up the Ring if it were just LYING on the side of the road (a paraphrase of Faramir's own words) to this treacherous evil person that is no better than greedy Boromir and his Pyro-lunatic father!<P>Riiight, The Nazgul are going to see Frodo if he puts on the Ring in Ithilien but they WOn't see him when he's three feet in front of them. (Maybe the wraith is farsighted?)<BR>Not to mention that Frodo and Sam don't go ANYWHERE NEAR Osgiliath in the books (too close to Gondor)<P>However, I will admit, a very impressive Nazgul on winged steed rignt in front of you was cool!

[the real findorfin]

I must say that a Minas Morgul scene would have been sooo much better, but let us hope that there is some more character development (by which I mean change) in faramir in the extended DVD, perhaps him gradually getting worried about it as they travel toward Osgiliath.<P>As I am reading ROTK now, I have just realised what troubles PJ could have run into with Faramir, he does not seem to be the galant hero that Beregond looked up to does he.<P>I will like the films whatever happens and I do not often criticise PJ because he has done a magnificient job, but I must grudgingly agree that Osgiliath was a mistake.

[The Only Real Estel]

No, Legolas didn't hit a blackrider! I'm sure of that. But I'm equally sure that he killed one of the winged beasts, or at least it plummeted to the ground screeching!

Not quite screetching I guess. In the books it states fairly clearly that it was a Black Rider on his winged mount, although Tolkien never actually SAID it, as you pointed out. But the books do quote Frodo as saying, among other things, "Whatever it was, its FALL has dismayed our enemies." I think that states pretty clearly that the beast fell, although obviously not the blackrider on it (which of course could only be killed by destroying Sauron's ring [lets not have a discussion about that, even if you do disagree with me, please!]). If anybody wants to read it and form their own opinions, but doesn't know were to look ( I'd forgotten were it was), it's in Book 2 ( of The Fellowship of the Ring), chapter 9 (The Great River), page 436. Anyway, all this to say what I said before, 'even if Farimir had killed the winged beast in Osgiliath ( As Legolas and done already), there was nothing to stop the Blackrider from calling all his evil minion buddies to the scene to pursue Frodo, as I thought he'd have likely done. I'm done typing! <p>[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I thought that it was interesting just to read all of the posts on this thread, but the only one I totally agree with is HCIsland. I thought pretty much the same thing. I mean, it was a <I>bit</I> lame, but it was a needed scene. I mean, come on, if he didn't put it in, and just showed Faramir, Sam, Frodo, and Gollum just "passing the bread", that's what we'd all be criticizing. PJ isn't perfect, but he's the only reason I came to this site, having loved the books but not to obsession and I'm sure that many members originally came here because of the movies, only later to realize how amazing the books were. Okay, getting off topic, sorry. I don't think you could count me in because I'm also sort of half for each, but I'm sorry, I really wanted to post my opinion for no understandable reason <BR>~Menelien

[The Only Real Estel]

I wouldn't critize PJ for sticking to the book with Farimir actually. In fact, I don't know hardly anyone who wouldn't sacrifice a little of the drama for a normal Farimir.That's just my opinion, you and everybody else is entitled to yours, of course. <p>[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Sapphire_Flame]

I thought the whole Osgiliath thing was unbearably painful. Sam himself said it perfectly: "By all rights we shouldn't even be here." <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>He could have created the same tension at Minas Morgul.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm agreeing with that. The same effect could have been achieved by following the story as written.<P>I will admit that the Nazgul looked wicked-cool, though!

[HCIsland]

Too be honest, for good or bad, I think another of the prime motivating factor behind the move to Osgiliath was to give us that one shot of Frodo before the Wraith. A bit of art for art's sake.<P>H.C.<P>Editted for bizzare typos from posting too quickly.<p>[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I didn't like the Nazgul scene, did PJ realise that he was making quite a big mistake?<BR>Sauron thought that the Ring was with Merry and Pippin, or with the Rohirrim. So if his Ring suddenly turned up at Osgiliath and was spotted by his Nazgul, very close to Mordor it seems very unlikely that he would not instantly go and get it, instead of ignoring them and letting them go into Mordor. <BR>Sorry if this has been said before, I must have missed it if it has.<BR>What do you think? Although the scene was pretty tense it still makes the end result a little unplausable.<BR>Any views?

[The Only Real Estel]

As I said above Daisy, the black rider would've called his buddies to the scene (like in the woods near Buckelberry Ferry in Fotr). I kinda figured on that, HC. But I still don't see why he out the Frodo/Nazgul scene in... <p>[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I <I>do</I> think that the scene was lame, but PJ had a lot on his hands with Helm's Deep and things like that and it was probably the best he could get for an exciting Frodo-Sam etc scene. And by what I said in an earlier post, I didn't mean that people would be criticizing that Faramir was like the book one (even though I personally like the new Faramir because of how David Wenham plays him), but that we would all be saying that there wasn't enough that actually <I>happened</I> with Frodo and Sam. Because there were really only 3 other 'action-y' scenes with them (whereas with the other characters, there were much more):<BR>a. when they caught Gollum<BR>b. in the dead marshes<BR>c. at the Black Gate<P>Probably I've missed one, but you get what I mean.<P>Edit: The Nazgul <I>would</I> probably have called up his buddies, but do you realize that the time he had to do it was a matter of seconds? And possibly they were too far away to come <I>that</I> fast. Maybe he did call them up, except they only catch up in RotK... we'll never know until December.<p>[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

[The Only Real Estel]

Yes, but Nazgul are 'faster than the wind', that's pretty fast! Remember, at the end of RotK, the Nazgul made a trip from Gondor to Mount Doom (roughly) in only a matter of moments! And they had a lot of time to reach Osgiliath while Sam and Frodo talked. The extended version could show more, but PJ isn't really that kind of a director. I think if Nazzie had called his, <BR>'buddies', they would've been there soon (plus it'd have taken to long for them to show up in RotK, after Sam and Frodo traveled through those woods and everything) I'd say the woods were the cut-off point for any Ringwraiths appearing. <p>[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[HCIsland]

From the horse's mouth.<P>This is from the fan club magazine. Here's a <A HREF="http://www.theonering.net/rumour_mill/rpg/viewer/moviediscussion/3E9E9FE90002F2FB.html" TARGET=_blank>link</A> to the post at OneRing. It's Jackson on why they made the changes to Faramir.<P>"The thing with Faramir is that there are a few contradictions with his character that we felt would weaken the thrust and narrative tension of the film. You also have to bear in mind that when I say 'It would weaken it' we're thinking of the response of a general audience - people who are not familiar with the book or people who have forgotten the book because they read it a long time ago. We are really trying to make the movie work for those people as well. <P>We felt that the problem with Faramir's character that was presented to us straight out of the pages of the book was the fact that he is able to shrug off the Ring too easily. There is no conflict with Faramir. He essentially captures the Hobbits very, very quickly [and] in the book, he turns around and lets them go. He has an opportunity to take the Ring, but he shrugs it away with seeming ease... <P>The simple premise that our movie hinges on is this: The Ring is so potently powerful that anyone who comes into contact with it is going to, in one way or another, be affected by it. We felt that Faramir's attitude would, in the minds of the cinema audience - and certainly the one that was unfamiliar with J.R.R. Tolkien - [give the feeling that] the Ring had suddenly lost its potency and its strength. <P>There were very few other scenes in The Two Towers that showed the strength of the Ring. The Fellowship was full of moments when the Ring was affecting people - at the Council of Elrond or with Boromir or even Bilbo at the beginning. Yet, in The Two Towers, the Ring is hardly featured at all. Frodo doesn't put it on; he doesn't come across anyone other than Faramir. We felt it would basically contradict everything we tried to establish in The Fellowship of the Ring [if] our only 'Ring encounter' in The Two Towers [was] one that is effectively shrugged away. <P>Some of the essense of Faramir's character, at that point, had to be changed, we felt, for the film.... We also wanted to make his capturing of the Hobbits have potency; we didn't want it to be so easy for them to be let go. We didn't change it to the point that the Hobbits sneak out and escape - Faramir does make the decision to let them go. We gave Faramir that decision; we didn't take that away from him. But we stretched it out so that, essentially, they were captured for longer, and there was more tension involved." <P>H.C.

[The Only Real Estel]

Whatever PJ. I'd still like to have seen a normal Farimir, although my world isn't going to end because he wasn't normal! <p>[ May 14, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]