Urak's and Berserker's - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Deiagorn · 01-31-2003, 04:49 PM

Berzerkers. If I use that term how many of you actually know what one is? I was just interested, are they Urak's? A berkerker was the urak-hai found in the attack of Helm's Deep. It is larger then other urak-hai, and wear no armour. One of the first fights on the deeping wall was a berkerzker wielding a giant axe thing.It was also the Urak-Hai that carried the torch to the explosives set in the deeping wall, it was shot 2/3 times by Legolas. Anyway as I have already started, are these Urak's, or are they just superhard Urak-Hai, although there are noticable differences.Also, how did Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas, know that those particular Orc's were known as Urak-Hai, I presume that they were unheard of before Saruman created them? Not once in FOTR were any of the fellowship informed about the name of the Urak-Hai, so does anyone have any answers?[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Deiagorn ]

Tar-Palantir · 01-31-2003, 07:08 PM

--Taken from The Tolkien Bestiary by: David Day <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "In the year 2475 of the Third Age a new breed of Orkish soldiery came out of Mordor. These were called the Uruk-Hai. They were lack-skinned, black-blooded and lynx-eyed, nearly as tall as Men and unafraid of light. The Uruk-hai were of greater strength and endurance than the lesser Orcs, and more formidable in battle. They wore black armour and black mail; they wielded long swords and spears and carried shields emblazoned with the Red Eye of Mordor.As the spawning of lesser Orcs was counted among the greatest evils of Melkor, so was the breeding of Uruk-hai numbered among Sauron's most terrible deeds. By what method Sauron bred these beings is not known, but they proved to be well suited to his evil purpose. Their numbers multiplied and they went among all the lesser Orcs and often became captains or formed legions of their own, for the Uruk-hai were proud of their fighting prowess and disdainful of the lesser servants of Sauron.When the Uruk-hai multitude came unexpectedly on the Men of Gondor with spear and sword, they drove the Men before them and stormed Osgiliath, set torches to it, and broke its stone bridge. Thus the Uruk-hai laid waste the greatest city of Gondor.This, however, was but the beginning of the work of the Uruk-hai, for these great Orcs were valued by the Dark Powers and they fell to evil deeds with a passion. Throughout the War of the Ring, the Uruk-hai were among the forces that came from Morgul and Mordor. And under the banner of the White Hand of Saruman they came in vast numbers out of Isengard into the Battle of Hornburg. Yet with the end of the War and the fall of Mordor the Uruk-hai were as straw before fire, for with Sauron gone the Uruk-hai, with the lesser Orcs and evil beasts, wandered masterless and were slain or driven into hiding where they might only feed on one another or die." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought the whole quote was interesting, hope it answers something anyway. I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever reading about berserker Uruk-hai, so maybe it's a movie creation.

Deiagorn · 01-31-2003, 08:55 PM

LOL, interesting reading there. Not very helpful to my questions but still I have learned something! Thanx, good work!

HCIsland · 01-31-2003, 09:36 PM

I could be having a memory lapse, but I have never heard reference to a beserker in LoTR.As for them knowing there were Uruk's coming from Isengard, I remember someone else bring this up. Gandalf knew there were Uruk's being bred in Isengard. In the special edition, Celeborn tells Aragorn there were bold orcs coming north right to the borders of Lorien that were capable of moving by day. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas fought Uruk's at Amon Hen and then tracked them and figured they were going to Isengard. Finally Aragorn saw the host themselves marching south. Now, please explain what I'm missing, but why wouldn't Gimli know there were Uruk-hai on the way to Helm's Deep?H.C.[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

Tar-Palantir · 01-31-2003, 10:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, how did Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas, know that those particular Orc's were known as Urak-Hai, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought you would just dig it out of the quote, sorry. Uruk-hai were an invention of Sauron, not Saruman, and have been crawling around ME for over 500 years. So Uruk-hai were known of.Berserker Uruk's were a movie invention AFAIK. [ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

eleanor_niphredil · 02-01-2003, 03:40 AM

Beserkers. Someones been at the playstation game, am I right?I would think that they are the same as Uruks, just a lttle tougher, like uruks are tougher than normal orcs. However, I dont think they ever really existed in Tolkiens world.But while we are on the subject, does anyone know how to kill one on the game, if you are playing as Legolas?

Dimannûnien · 02-01-2003, 05:31 AM

I think the term 'berserker' is a Viking one, and the berserkers were warriors who got really hyped up , adrenalin rush and so on, so that they seemed to be impervious to pain and the like. They may have worn bearskins to seem even more scary. I seem to remember that the film 'The Thirteenth Warrior' features berserkers.

02-01-2003, 05:38 AM

Yup, that sounds about right: Uruks can go berzerk just like the Wild Men probably did. But in the film I thought the bit with the explosion on the wall was made up until I reread TTT and got to the reference "they have lit the fires of Isengard under the walls" or something like that anyway.

Arwen_Evenstar · 02-01-2003, 06:27 AM

Didn't the uruk-hai shout out to aragorn: 'We are the fighting Uruk-hai!' ? Wouldnt that give him a hint that they were called uruk-hai?

doug*platypus · 02-01-2003, 06:31 AM

Dimannûnien's description of a berserker is spot on, although I'm not sure that bear cults are necessarily a part of it, and may have been a different matter. PJ and co's use of the term berserker for the Olympic Torch orc is a bastardisation of the term. He didn't show anything like a berserk rage, come to think of it noone in the movies does, with the possible exception of Aragorn at the end of FOTR. Commandoes would have been a better alternative, but I suppose they wanted something with medieval connotations.Berserkers are never mentioned in Tolkien's books, but Beorn goes into some kind of berserk fury at the Battle of Five Armies and is probably the closest example.There should be a games forum!! For everything from PS2 to the boardgames that I've heard about. Maybe someone else can suggest it to The Barrow Wight. My Barrow Downs clock idea lasted for less than a day!

eleanor_niphredil · 02-01-2003, 03:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There should be a games forum!! For everything from PS2 to the boardgames that I've heard about. Maybe someone else can suggest it to The Barrow Wight. My Barrow Downs clock idea lasted for less than a day! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You should definatly suggest that! Post it on the Barrow- Downs forum. If you dont, I will.

Estelyn Telcontar · 02-01-2003, 03:56 PM

(Aside to doug - the clock is back up. It was only down because it wasn't working accurately.)

Greyhame · 02-01-2003, 04:14 PM

The berserker uruks are just another contribution from the fertile imagination of PJ...

Grimbold · 02-01-2003, 04:44 PM

When creating the wide shots of armies with the program MASSIVE, the Uruk-hai warriors were broken into different fighting styles to make the battles more interesting to watch. Berserkers is the name for one of those types, particularly the ones which rode the ladders up into the air and onto the Wall. I don't think "berserker" is ever said in the movie.

**The Saucepan Man** · 02-02-2003, 01:20 PM

Dimannunion's description of Viking beserkers is spot on: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think the term 'berserker' is a Viking one, and the berserkers were warriors who got really hyped up , adrenalin rush and so on, so that they seemed to be impervious to pain and the like. They may have worn bearskins to seem even more scary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I cannot recall any specific reference to beserker Orcs in TTT (they are certainly not in the books). But there are a number of unarmoured and fierce-looking Orcs at Helms Deep who would fit the beserker tradition, since beserkers shunned the use of armour.As for LotR boardgames, a thread was started <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001983" TARGET=_blank>here</A> on LotR Risk, but noone seemed too interested ...

01-31-2003, 04:49 PM	#1
Deiagorn Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Posts: 23	Urak's and Berserker's Berzerkers.<BR>If I use that term how many of you actually know what one is? I was just interested, are they Urak's?<BR>A berkerker was the urak-hai found in the attack of Helm's Deep. It is larger then other urak-hai, and wear no armour. One of the first fights on the deeping wall was a berkerzker wielding a giant axe thing.<P>It was also the Urak-Hai that carried the torch to the explosives set in the deeping wall, it was shot 2/3 times by Legolas.<BR>Anyway as I have already started, are these Urak's, or are they just superhard Urak-Hai, although there are noticable differences.<P>Also, how did Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas, know that those particular Orc's were known as Urak-Hai, I presume that they were unheard of before Saruman created them? Not once in FOTR were any of the fellowship informed about the name of the Urak-Hai, so does anyone have any answers?<p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Deiagorn ] __________________ ÐëÎÃGôRÑ ôf â§ëÑdÖR

01-31-2003, 07:08 PM	#2
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	--Taken from The Tolkien Bestiary by: David Day<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "In the year 2475 of the Third Age a new breed of Orkish soldiery came out of Mordor. These were called the Uruk-Hai. They were lack-skinned, black-blooded and lynx-eyed, nearly as tall as Men and unafraid of light. The Uruk-hai were of greater strength and endurance than the lesser Orcs, and more formidable in battle. They wore black armour and black mail; they wielded long swords and spears and carried shields emblazoned with the Red Eye of Mordor.<P>As the spawning of lesser Orcs was counted among the greatest evils of Melkor, so was the breeding of Uruk-hai numbered among Sauron's most terrible deeds. By what method Sauron bred these beings is not known, but they proved to be well suited to his evil purpose. Their numbers multiplied and they went among all the lesser Orcs and often became captains or formed legions of their own, for the Uruk-hai were proud of their fighting prowess and disdainful of the lesser servants of Sauron.<P>When the Uruk-hai multitude came unexpectedly on the Men of Gondor with spear and sword, they drove the Men before them and stormed Osgiliath, set torches to it, and broke its stone bridge. Thus the Uruk-hai laid waste the greatest city of Gondor.<P>This, however, was but the beginning of the work of the Uruk-hai, for these great Orcs were valued by the Dark Powers and they fell to evil deeds with a passion. Throughout the War of the Ring, the Uruk-hai were among the forces that came from Morgul and Mordor. And under the banner of the White Hand of Saruman they came in vast numbers out of Isengard into the Battle of Hornburg. Yet with the end of the War and the fall of Mordor the Uruk-hai were as straw before fire, for with Sauron gone the Uruk-hai, with the lesser Orcs and evil beasts, wandered masterless and were slain or driven into hiding where they might only feed on one another or die."<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought the whole quote was interesting, hope it answers something anyway. I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever reading about berserker Uruk-hai, so maybe it's a movie creation. __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

01-31-2003, 08:55 PM	#3
Deiagorn Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Posts: 23	LOL, interesting reading there. Not very helpful to my questions but still I have learned something!<BR>Thanx, good work! __________________ ÐëÎÃGôRÑ ôf â§ëÑdÖR

01-31-2003, 09:36 PM	#4
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I could be having a memory lapse, but I have never heard reference to a beserker in LoTR.<P>As for them knowing there were Uruk's coming from Isengard, I remember someone else bring this up. Gandalf knew there were Uruk's being bred in Isengard. In the special edition, Celeborn tells Aragorn there were bold orcs coming north right to the borders of Lorien that were capable of moving by day. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas fought Uruk's at Amon Hen and then tracked them and figured they were going to Isengard. Finally Aragorn saw the host themselves marching south. Now, please explain what I'm missing, but why wouldn't Gimli know there were Uruk-hai on the way to Helm's Deep?<P>H.C.<p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ] __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

01-31-2003, 10:26 PM	#5
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, how did Gimli, Aragorn, and Legolas, know that those particular Orc's were known as Urak-Hai, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought you would just dig it out of the quote, sorry. Uruk-hai were an invention of Sauron, not Saruman, and have been crawling around ME for over 500 years. So Uruk-hai were known of.<P>Berserker Uruk's were a movie invention AFAIK. <p>[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ] __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

02-01-2003, 03:40 AM	#6
eleanor_niphredil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: england Posts: 805	Beserkers. Someones been at the playstation game, am I right?<P>I would think that they are the same as Uruks, just a lttle tougher, like uruks are tougher than normal orcs. However, I dont think they ever really existed in Tolkiens world.<P>But while we are on the subject, does anyone know how to kill one on the game, if you are playing as Legolas? __________________ Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to spend my time on this forum. And by the way, for any of you turning into a penguin, stop it. ~* I am Pippin took in the Female Fellowship*~

02-01-2003, 05:31 AM	#7
Dimannûnien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 36	I think the term 'berserker' is a Viking one, and the berserkers were warriors who got really hyped up , adrenalin rush and so on, so that they seemed to be impervious to pain and the like. They may have worn bearskins to seem even more scary. I seem to remember that the film 'The Thirteenth Warrior' features berserkers.

02-01-2003, 05:38 AM	#8
Withiel Black Guest Posts: n/a	Yup, that sounds about right: Uruks can go berzerk just like the Wild Men probably did.<BR>But in the film I thought the bit with the explosion on the wall was made up until I reread TTT and got to the reference "they have lit the fires of Isengard under the walls" or something like that anyway.

02-01-2003, 06:27 AM	#9
Arwen_Evenstar Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 206	Didn't the uruk-hai shout out to aragorn:<BR> 'We are the fighting Uruk-hai!' ? Wouldnt that give him a hint that they were called uruk-hai? __________________ 'I am Agarwaen, Son of Úmarth...'-Túrin Turambar. Arwen_Evenstar

02-01-2003, 06:31 AM	#10
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Dimannûnien's description of a berserker is spot on, although I'm not sure that bear cults are necessarily a part of it, and may have been a different matter. PJ and co's use of the term berserker for the Olympic Torch orc is a bastardisation of the term. He didn't show anything like a berserk rage, come to think of it noone in the movies does, with the possible exception of Aragorn at the end of FOTR. Commandoes would have been a better alternative, but I suppose they wanted something with medieval connotations.<P>Berserkers are never mentioned in Tolkien's books, but Beorn goes into some kind of berserk fury at the Battle of Five Armies and is probably the closest example.<P>There should be a games forum!! For everything from PS2 to the boardgames that I've heard about. Maybe someone else can suggest it to The Barrow Wight. My Barrow Downs clock idea lasted for less than a day! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

02-01-2003, 03:49 PM	#11
eleanor_niphredil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: england Posts: 805	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There should be a games forum!! For everything from PS2 to the boardgames that I've heard about. Maybe someone else can suggest it to The Barrow Wight. My Barrow Downs clock idea lasted for less than a day!<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should definatly suggest that! Post it on the Barrow- Downs forum. If you dont, I will. __________________ Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to spend my time on this forum. And by the way, for any of you turning into a penguin, stop it. ~* I am Pippin took in the Female Fellowship*~

02-01-2003, 03:56 PM	#12
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	(Aside to doug - the clock is back up. It was only down because it wasn't working accurately.) __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

02-01-2003, 04:14 PM	#13
Greyhame Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: illinois Posts: 42	The berserker uruks are just another contribution from the fertile imagination of PJ... __________________ Poo-tee-weet?

02-01-2003, 04:44 PM	#14
Grimbold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenor Posts: 88	When creating the wide shots of armies with the program MASSIVE, the Uruk-hai warriors were broken into different fighting styles to make the battles more interesting to watch. Berserkers is the name for one of those types, particularly the ones which rode the ladders up into the air and onto the Wall. I don't think "berserker" is ever said in the movie. __________________ Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains. Like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the west. Behind the hills, into shadow. How did it come to this?

02-02-2003, 01:20 PM	#15
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Dimannunion's description of Viking beserkers is spot on:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think the term 'berserker' is a Viking one, and the berserkers were warriors who got really hyped up , adrenalin rush and so on, so that they seemed to be impervious to pain and the like. They may have worn bearskins to seem even more scary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I cannot recall any specific reference to beserker Orcs in TTT (they are certainly not in the books). But there are a number of unarmoured and fierce-looking Orcs at Helms Deep who would fit the beserker tradition, since beserkers shunned the use of armour.<P>As for LotR boardgames, a thread was started <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001983" TARGET=_blank>here</A> on LotR Risk, but noone seemed too interested ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!