Seven Stars and Seven Stones

[Voralphion]

Aragorn bore the Star of Elendil. Unfinished Tales makes reference to Isengard being searched after Saruman's departure and the Star of Isildur being found there among bones

The star of Isildur was the elendilmir,the star of Elendil. The gem that Aragorn wore was a recreation of this as the original had been lost when Isildur was lost.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Ailios

In RoTK Tolkien writes in the index, where he explicitly refers to the rhyme, "[the] Seven stars, of Elendil and his captains. ... [They] originally represented to single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9 [three times three]) that bore a palantir; in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown."

Aha! I came looking for this, because the 'seven stars' in Gandalf's poem have always bothered me. The poem was quoted to explain the Seven Stones, and we see a lot of the One White Tree, but the stars seemed to just be there to take up space! Obviously I should have checked the index, because... I guess that's where you find worldbuilding these days?

Originally Posted by Amarie of the Vanyar

Iargwath, in the heraldry page you linked it is said that they were five-pointed stars, and, even though, I like your explanation that this is because of the shape of the island of Númenor, in the index of RotK it is said that they were six-pointed

This worries me, because under 'Elendil' in the Google Books copy of RotK, I find the words 'Seven Stars of Elendil and his captains, had five rays...' This version of the index does not include an extensive entry under 'Stars, as emblems' - it just redirects to Elendil.

So which is it? Are the stars on the flag of Gondor five- or six-pointed? The five-ray version appears to be from the 50th Anniversary edition, which [urly="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11338&page=2"]this thread[/URL] suggests featured an all-new, non-Tolkien index. So... is this simply a mistake, or is it a reversion to Tolkien's original intent? Is there anyone with a copy of the Readers' Guide who can shed any light on the question?

And... are they real objects, or not? The index (either version) says:

Seven Stars of Elendil and his captains... originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir; in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown

They could be jewels worn by Elendil and six of his captains, with the Elendilmir being the primary one; but that would mean the jewels were put in place after the banners on the ships. Or they could be what it says - seven stars on seven banners. But then they're essentially just a stand-in for the Stones, which are already named in the song... I admit I would prefer them to be something that actually existed, but that might just be wistful thinking.

hS

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So which is it? Are the stars on the flag of Gondor five- or six-pointed? The five-ray version appears to be from the 50th Anniversary edition, which this thread suggests featured an all-new, non-Tolkien index. So... is this simply a mistake, or is it a reversion to Tolkien's original intent? Is there anyone with a copy of the Readers' Guide who can shed any light on the question?

About the Tolkien Companion - it contains this passage, on p.516, beginning at the second line from the top:

“In regard to many-pointed stars, in the 1966 Index as first published each of the seven stars of Elendil (see note for p.597) is said to have six points. But in the Allen & Unwin de luxe edition of 1969 this was changed to five points, possibly because the binding art of that book is an adaptation of Tolkien’s dust-jacket design for The Return of the King (see ‘Preliminaries’, above), in which each of the stars has five points.”

Page 597 is not p.597 of the Guide, but p.597 of the continuously paginated edition of 2004, reprinted with corrections in 2005.

[Huinesoron]

Ah, the cover art! D'you know, that never even occurred to me? But Tolkien's design is indeed very clear. That answers that.

(Incidentally, the cover art for The Two Towers also answers once and for all what the 'two towers' were - it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. And is that a very bird-like Fell Beast flying between them...? But that's probably a question for another thread.)

hS

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ah, the cover art! D'you know, that never even occurred to me? But Tolkien's design is indeed very clear. That answers that.

(Incidentally, the cover art for The Two Towers also answers once and for all what the 'two towers' were - it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. And is that a very bird-like Fell Beast flying between them...? But that's probably a question for another thread.)

hS

My impression is that there was no pressing narrative reason for one number of points to be preferred to the other. Though it would have been appropriate, had there been a connection between the five-pointed stars, and the five promontories of the Land of the Star

A connection between the Valacirca, the Seven Stars, the shape of Numenor, the Star of Feanor, and the Crown of Durin, would have been better....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

A connection between the Valacirca, the Seven Stars, the shape of Numenor, the Star of Feanor, and the Crown of Durin, would have been better....

It is interesting to look for connections among the various symbols.

Númenor of course was a five-pointed star shape, and the Star of the House of Fëanor is described by Gandalf on the Moria West-gate as only having 'many rays'. The illustration seems to show sixteen.

We also see seven Lords of the Valar and seven Queens.

The Crown of Durin certainly has seven stars, which would seem to correlate with the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Aulë the Vala 'made' the Dwarves with Eru's blessing, and so attains the Seven connection that way, maybe?

The Silmarillion in Of the Beginning of Days states the Trees both took seven hours to fully wax and wane.

Seven has the Christian significance of being the 'perfect' number; ie the Days of Creation, and in the West of the world today is still considered lucky. I'd be very tempted to say that factored into Tolkien's repeated use of the number.