What happened to the avari?

[lindil]

Man of the Wold, I don't think Dorwinion was recycled, the reference in lays [ actually one of several] says it was 'far' to the south. That fits with Dorwinion's palcement by JRRT at the NW area of [above] the Sea of Rhun, i.e at the confluence of the Sea and the River Running.

also, your jan 25 summary of the nandor and co. in Anduin/Mirkwood and gondor etc, was spot on.

I suggest submitting it as an Encyclopedia entry, with just a little modification.

As for the lorien traade route not being ruled out, I think Celeborn and Haldir's[?] words in the Lothlorien ch. of FotR show there was no communication/trade between the 2 relatively nearby Elven realms.

It is hard to imagine the lorien elves would trade with middle-MEN instead of Elves directly. Also the main-road through Mirkwood at the time of the Hobbit was supposedly broken down at the end, as was the northern elf-road.

Thid road surely must have been subject to severe Orc harrasment from DolGuldor, although the Hobbit map shows human stlements near the western end of it.
Perhaps Rhosgobel is one of these unlisted woodmen towns. Anyway it is hard to imagine the Lorien Elves [ who seem the ultimate M-E isolationists] trading with anyone except the Mirkwood Elves, whom as I mentioned earlier, were for some unknown reason incommunicado. I expect some serious bad-blood on the part of Thranduil and the Noldor/Galadriel.

Look how long he carried the Doriathrin anti-Dwarven sentiment! Why not still be ticked at the Noldor too!

The scenario I have postulated once before to explain the communication blackout is this - Thranduil was anti-Noldor as well as Anti-Dwarven; the communication break with Lorien could be explained by his upset at Lorien's close ally being Rivendell instead of himself. Rivendell/Elrond were the subject of his wrath because Elrond [and possibly Lorien] had taken in the last members of the household of Feanor from Eregion. So it all goes back to the 2 assaults on Doriath, and prejudice's he inherited from his father [mentioned in Orophir not wanting to take orders from Gil-Galad.

So, his words to gandalf as he and Bilbo head West, could be a sign of rapproachment with Gandalf and all of his allies. This is shown by the fact that he sent Legolas to the Council of Elrond.

In support of the previously harsh stance against the Lorien/Imladris Elves could have been the possibly Avari predominant Southern Kin/'Dorwinion' Elves.

We read in a few places that some of the Avari felt betrayed by the Eldar, and also in UT that some of the Doriathin lords [Oropher, seemingly cheif among them] wanted to return to a life free of valinorean influence. This would have put them cleanly at odds with the western Elven communities, especially as the Istari arrived and held counsel with them.

actually I just found the quote.

The Silvan Elves ruled by Thranduil retreated before it [the shadow of the Necromancer] as it spread ever Northward, until at last he established his realm in the North-East of the forest...Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves...this they did delibrately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named*) came from Doriath after its ruin and no desire to leave Middle-Earth, nor to be merged with the other sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Lorien had no great love. they wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.

Other points of contention could have been the Feanorians again creating chaos [ this time by Celebrimbor's forging of the Rings and being duped by Sauron] and Thranduil's learning that galadriel had not created her Girdle by Melian means, but was using Sauronian and Feanorian 'technology' to create an Elvish paradise. Complete with [at least some] refugee's from Eregion, among whom may well have been 'kinslayers unrepentant' of the household Feanor.

Another curiosity in support of my theory is that gandalf did not route the trip through Thranduil's kingdom to start with, he had planned on taking them through the Forest road.

After receiving help from Beorn he seems to have set the Dwarves up for a run in, knowing thranduil's realm was at the end of the road [ and Thorin and Balin at least should have known it too!], possibly hoping that all would work out, but he certainly did not include any instructions as he left them for dealing with a touchy and suspicious Thranduil!


So... the only trade [I think] happening with thranduil's realm [till after the defeat of Sauron] was on a North-South corridor with Elves and Men in the Dorwinion area.

So what we have are:
*Men making wine in Dorwinion in the Hobbit.

*Wine in Dorwinion in HoME 3 [ race of viticulturists unknown].

*Elven kin of the Mirkwood Elves to the 'south' in the Hobbit.

I do not think 'South' meant southern mirkwood, at least not in large enough numbers to trade much with.

Southern Mirkwood was almost certainly all controlled or at least terrorized by the Necromancer and the Nazgul.

Indeed we read [ in UT] of a drift north from the Necromancer, and another sore point between the Lorien and Mirkwood communities could be that Thranduil asked for aid in attacking Dol Guldor and Lorien may have said no, and then the Elves packed up and went to the north.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]