Inherent Evil

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Thanks, Estelyn, but I think we're ok.

Now as Keneldil says, it seems as if we've finished on the whole Illuvatar thing (thanks for the excellent discussion, by the way); back to Orcs specifically, then. Quite good really, as I don't think I've got time today for yet another long-winded post on the issue. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

From Keneldil, we heard:

A knife is not inherently evil regardless of the intention of its maker. A tool is merely an extention of the one that wields it.

True, but the problem with Orcs is is that they can only ever be used, by Morgoth or descendant, for evil. They were never anything more than agents for evil, so in their case, were the 'tool' theory to apply, I think we could say that they were inherently evil. As you say, 'an extension of the one that wields it' -- Orcs are then, in mind, an 'extension' if you like of Morgoth and his evil. They are so totally filled with his malice that they cannot cease to be sources of evil in the world.

You can debate, as you are, on whether (provided they were without fëar) their being created out of evil makes them evil themselves or not. In a way you would be right; in a way, they would be mere 'tools' if they did not have thoughts of their own.

However, for the reasons stated above (first paragraph), I still think Orcs would be evil inherently as they are, in essence, sources of evil. Wells (i.e. water-wells), if you like, of evilness upon earth. Simply put, as they can never be anything other than evil things (contrary to Illuvatar's will) in Arda, they are evil in their very fibres.

All this said, I do not think that they were mere tools. A tool, as you say, is evil because of the use it is put to. Orcs are evil even when they are not being 'wielded' in this way -- remember the brigand-orcs, and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains that managed their own evil affairs for a while; furthermore, while certainly Morgoth and Sauron used their Orcs as tools to their design, it does not mean that Orcs were fëa-less. Humans can be used as tools. Anyone can be manipulated. In any case, Orcs were bound to their masters (Sauron, Morgoth) because of the ties of evil out of which they were born.

Orcs, I believe (good to see I agree with Nils on something [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), are beings in their own right (regardless of their precise origins, which we will never know -- apart from, crucially, that they were effectively made by Morgoth).