Inherent Evil

[Nils]

And if I learn subsequently that the author had later ideas which conflict with those impressions, particularly if (as is the case with the origins and sentience of Orcs), they are unresolved, I do not feel that I am bound to accept them. I am happy to if they make sense to me, but Orcs as soulless, non-rational beasts just doesn't make sense, based on how they are portrayed in LotR.

I take it then that you consider the Silmarillion to be one of those original books that you base your ideas on.

I guess it depends on one's age as to the Silmarillion's influence on one's original view of Middle-earth.

I posted the quote from Treebeard to point out the fact that the Two Towers has an 'orc origins' theory. For those who are older, I'd think that the Silmarillion would fall under the category of subsequent information.

I don't have a problem with the concept of Orcs originating from Men. Indeed, it would solve a lot of problems, such as whether or not they are immortal and whether or not their souls go to Mandos when they die. Questions such as these are, I believe, why Tolkien started thinking in terms of Orcs as debased Men. My difficulty, however, is a logical/temporal one. How could Orcs have their origin in Man when Orcs were around before Men awoke?

It seems to me that this problem is easily solved by moving up Man's time of awakening. Take that and the different kinds of Orcs (Maiar, beast, Men) and I believe the 'Man theory' could fit rather well.

It would require a little work on the published Silmarillion, but since JRR did not publish it, I don't think it should be held in too high regard. Even if Tolkien had published it, he was not above editing his older work to make corrections.

Concerning the way orcs were supposed to have reproduced, here is a brief passage from the Silmarillion which I offer knowing full well the criticism I'll receive because I'm using that as a source.

It isn't the mere fact that it is from the Silmarillion that makes the information suspect, it also has to do with how the information fits with Tolkien's later thoughts on the subject.


Mithadan,

His son Bolg was slain in the Battle of Five Armies in TA 2941, 142 years later suggesting that Orcs were at least long lived, indicating at a minumum a partial Elvish origin.

Or perhaps Maiar.

OK, one other possibility comes to mind:

The Mouth of Sauron had unnaturally long life without a ring of power. Why couldn't an Orc learn to do the same?

[ July 31, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]