How Many Valar?

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

How many Valar do u think there were?
How many spirits and Elves do u think lived with the Valar.
Also: how many men do u think lived in Numenor and Gondor.
How many Dwarves?

[red]

Read the books!

[The Barrow-Wight]

If all we did was read the books then there'd be no reason for this forum to exist. Hopefully someone will come along with a constructive answer soon (I don't have the time at the moment).

[red]

Actually, my answer was very constructive. Not only am I encouraging him to read but I am helping him find the answer himself. You know, helping him become self-sufficient. Besides, he is not looking for discussion, he is simply seeking facts.

-rêd

[The Barrow-Wight]

<STRONG>he is simply seeking facts.-rêd</STRONG>

We do facts, too.

Stop hounding the visitors.

[Witch King of Angmar]

Children, children, play nice, now if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Yes that phrase has been the back of moral tradition in my family for the past 412 generations...

(Somehow, his voice seems to fade into the mist, thank god...)

[Elendur]

I can answer one question. There were 15 Valar, who were known as the Powers of Arda (earth). There are the Lords of the Valar: Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien, and Tulkas. And there are the Queens of the Valar known as Valier: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Este, Vaire, Vana, and Nessa. The missing Valar (I only listed 14) is Melkor, whos name is not spoken for obvious reasons.

Asking how many Elves, Men, and Dwarves there were in certain places would be guesswork to say the least. But I would say that Men and Dwarves would be alot easier to keep track of than Elves who had been living for quite a while. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

It was never said how many spirits? , Elves, men or Dwarves there were.

[Kin-strife]

There were 144 Elves to begin with.
There's my two cents, though obviously the number grew greatly since then.

[Manwe]

And for the dwarves the only thing we know is that there were seven first when one Vala, I think it was the one of earth( can't remember his name ), created them.

[Elrian]

It was Aule who created the Dwarves, interesting thing is though if the were the 7 fathers, how were the dwarves able to reproduce? There must have been some females as well, just never mentioned. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Inziladun]

How were the Dwarves able to reproduce?

I used to wonder about that too. There's a line from Letters that says

And [Ilúvatar] commanded Aulë to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Dúrin the eldest who had none.

That being the case, makes one wonder how Dúrin's line (including Thorin et al) came to be.

[RyAN the Pure Heart]

am i to assume you mean vala AND maia? that would make sence then

[obloquy]

Is it not possible that the female Dwarves were included in the "seven fathers"? Since it is said that Durin had no mate, that would leave an even number of "fathers". I think this is more likely than there being six more female Dwarves that were just not mentioned.

[obloquy]

Inziladun: According to the family tree in Appendix A, part III Durin's Folk, the line of Durin that Thorin was connected to originated, naturally, with Durin the Deathless. But the second individual on the family tree is Durin VI. This implies that several members of the line of Durin were skipped. As we know, the Dwarves believed that Durin would occasionally be reborn among them. So it appears that the first five incarnations of Durin had no offspring, otherwise Durin's line would have begun with them.

So while the ultimate beginning of the line of Durin was Durin the Deathless, the actual line of Durin's offspring didn't actually begin until Durin VI had children. Interestingly, because of that fact, the previous four Durins (four excludes Durin the Deathless) may have been born from unrelated families, and were not in a direct father-to-son line of parentage as we have in the family tree I've referred you to.

[Inziladun]

This discussion probably belongs in its own thread, but oh well.

...it appears that the first five incarnations of Durin had no offspring, otherwise Durin's line would have begun with them.

I don't see why that must be the case. The family tree referred to shows the Line of the Dwarves of Erebor. Durin the Deathless is shown because he is the earliest descendant of them and all dwarves of the Line. Gimli, who supposedly set down this family tree, obviously could not include every person in the Line. So the next Durin he shows is Durin VI, who was noteworthy as the last king of Moria, then his son Náin I, then Thráin I who was the first King Under the Mountain. Perhaps there was simply nothing notable enough about Durins II through V to include them there.
I don't think it specifically says anywhere, but one would think all dwarves named Durin would be of Durin's line.
That's quick cos I have to go to work. I'll try to read up on it.

[Mithadan]

In Peoples of Middle Earth (HoME 12) it is said that each of the original fathers of the dwarves also had a spouse when he awoke except for Durin "who walked alone". Presumably Durin later met a suitable spouse.

[obloquy]

Mmm, okie. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Let us know what you find, Inz.