Sauron's first demise. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Túroch · 11-20-2002, 11:48 AM

I was rereading the Silmarillion yesterday and got to the part about the sinking of Numenor and a though struck me. We all know why Sauron survived his destuction and the hands of the last alliance, the ring endured and because he put a large part of his power into it he also endured. But what about when he perished during the sinking of Numenor. How could he of survived the destruction. Where was the ring then? He couldn't of had it on him when Numenor sunk or it would have been lost. Would he of left it behind him though?

Also something else. After the destuction of his physical form the book said that "he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malicee andhatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure." So is the nebulous eye his new form? If so what from was he in when his hand was cut off from Isildur. The Eye of Sauron to my understanding is not a "real" physical from but merely a visible guise for his spirit.

Orald · 11-20-2002, 01:57 PM

I believe this topic was discussed a few months back and someone actually found a quote from Letters or some such thing that basically stated that when Sauron's body perished, the ring was taken up in his spirit, being bound to it and fled back to Middle-Earth. Obviously, Sauron did have the ring at the time of the Fall.

Sauron actually fought in the battle of the Last Alliance, which could have proved difficult if he was just an eye wreathed in flame. So he assumed a body, maybe something similar to Morgoth's. Only when his body was destroyed again is anything mentioned of this single eye wreathed in flame, IIRC. Anyway, at the time of the fellowship, and even before while he was at Dol Guldur I am sure he had a more human form.

Galorme · 11-20-2002, 02:10 PM

I am sorry am I missing something here. I swear Sauron HAD made the ring at the time of the downfall. I cant think of a timeline with dates, but i can think up a few quotes, or near quotes that support it.

Quote:

Sauron put on his Fairest form and came to the elves, naming himself Arator [sp?], giver of gifts

Quote:

His spirit fled, but never again could he apear fair

The suggestion here is that he must have come to the elves before he lost his ability to apear fair, thus making the Ring first. But i believe he could have survived anyway really, he was a powerful spirit who wouldn't loose that much power through loosing his body.

Manwe Sulimo · 11-20-2002, 03:00 PM

It was Annatar [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think that Sauron left the Ring in Mordor when he was captured (since he would be loathe to bring his most prized treasure into the hands of the enemy). Since his power was bound to the Ring, he could come back to it while it still survived.

WarBringer · 11-20-2002, 03:08 PM

dont u think that questions would have been asked had sauron worn the ring all over Numenor? If the meaning was discovered he'd be in trouble-he probably stashed the ring in mordor- he may have even guessed at the demise of numenor and taken steps to have the ring waiting when it happened. Also he could make it look like he died and than suprise his enemies. Or am i way off base?

Galorme · 11-20-2002, 05:03 PM

Questions were asked. He killed and persecuted the ones who asked them. That Sauron was a dark force was worked out pretty soon I think, by the faithful anyway. Hence not many of the faithful lived very long.

Sauron should have made a back up ring, which he poured enough power to keep him alive, then sunk it in the ocean, or buried it really deep, so he would have a backup if his ring were destroyed. At least that way he could come back.

Actually I wonder if he had taken the ring and it had been sunk in the ocean with Numinor what the effects on the Third Age would have been. He would be basically undefeatable, as the fellowship couldn't have destroyed what they didn't have. Unless Deagle was a realllyyy good diver.

Túroch · 11-20-2002, 05:10 PM

Hmmm, could Sauron take a physical form after the Last Alliance? From what i've read it sounded like he was present in spirit during LOTR but had no bodily manifestation. Then of course if you think that why did he have to have the ring brought to him? Why couldn't he just go to the rings if he was only a spirit? If ther ring had fallen into the abyss during the downfall of Numenor Sauron would still exist but remain relativley weak compared to him with the ring. It is said that the only reason Sauron remained after his Death at the Last Aliiance is due to the ring remaining. So maybe that was why he could come back to Mordor after the fall of Numenor?

GreyIstar · 11-20-2002, 10:56 PM

Sauron doesn't go after the Ring personally because he is afraid, and he has minions to do his biding. After his fall against the last allience he will not take up battle personally. It was a miracle he came out and fought there too and an even bigger one that the ring was even cut off his finger.

After his fall in the war of the ring his spirit does still exist though it is very weak and never able to regain his strength.

***Sharkû*** · 11-21-2002, 05:52 AM

Quote:

could Sauron take a physical form after the Last Alliance?

Definitely.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Curulin · 11-21-2002, 10:10 AM

Wow, thanks Sharku, always wondered about that, must have missed it when i read the letters... what did people think of the way they did it in the film? if that doesnt belong here, just dont answer...

Another related question, if Maia such as Sauron or Gandalf could have their bodies destroyed, but their spirits remained, what happened to Balrogs, (which were also maia) such as Gothmog, when they got killed?

***Sharkû*** · 11-21-2002, 11:18 AM

The movie furthered the common misconception of spirit-Sauron, or, even worse, eye-ball Sauron. Of course it's understandable in a way, given that there are hardly any concrete images of him; and that old Sauron had been merely a spirit once or twice throughout his life up to the Ring-War.

As for the fall of a Balrog, I can imagine it might look something like this:
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."

11-20-2002, 11:48 AM	#1
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Sauron's first demise. I was rereading the Silmarillion yesterday and got to the part about the sinking of Numenor and a though struck me. We all know why Sauron survived his destuction and the hands of the last alliance, the ring endured and because he put a large part of his power into it he also endured. But what about when he perished during the sinking of Numenor. How could he of survived the destruction. Where was the ring then? He couldn't of had it on him when Numenor sunk or it would have been lost. Would he of left it behind him though? Also something else. After the destuction of his physical form the book said that "he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malicee andhatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure." So is the nebulous eye his new form? If so what from was he in when his hand was cut off from Isildur. The Eye of Sauron to my understanding is not a "real" physical from but merely a visible guise for his spirit. __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

11-20-2002, 03:00 PM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	It was Annatar [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think that Sauron left the Ring in Mordor when he was captured (since he would be loathe to bring his most prized treasure into the hands of the enemy). Since his power was bound to the Ring, he could come back to it while it still survived. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

11-20-2002, 03:08 PM	#5
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	dont u think that questions would have been asked had sauron worn the ring all over Numenor? If the meaning was discovered he'd be in trouble-he probably stashed the ring in mordor- he may have even guessed at the demise of numenor and taken steps to have the ring waiting when it happened. Also he could make it look like he died and than suprise his enemies. Or am i way off base? __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

11-20-2002, 05:03 PM	#6
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	Questions were asked. He killed and persecuted the ones who asked them. That Sauron was a dark force was worked out pretty soon I think, by the faithful anyway. Hence not many of the faithful lived very long. Sauron should have made a back up ring, which he poured enough power to keep him alive, then sunk it in the ocean, or buried it really deep, so he would have a backup if his ring were destroyed. At least that way he could come back. Actually I wonder if he had taken the ring and it had been sunk in the ocean with Numinor what the effects on the Third Age would have been. He would be basically undefeatable, as the fellowship couldn't have destroyed what they didn't have. Unless Deagle was a realllyyy good diver. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

11-20-2002, 05:10 PM	#7
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Hmmm, could Sauron take a physical form after the Last Alliance? From what i've read it sounded like he was present in spirit during LOTR but had no bodily manifestation. Then of course if you think that why did he have to have the ring brought to him? Why couldn't he just go to the rings if he was only a spirit? If ther ring had fallen into the abyss during the downfall of Numenor Sauron would still exist but remain relativley weak compared to him with the ring. It is said that the only reason Sauron remained after his Death at the Last Aliiance is due to the ring remaining. So maybe that was why he could come back to Mordor after the fall of Numenor? __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

11-20-2002, 01:57 PM	#2
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I believe this topic was discussed a few months back and someone actually found a quote from Letters or some such thing that basically stated that when Sauron's body perished, the ring was taken up in his spirit, being bound to it and fled back to Middle-Earth. Obviously, Sauron did have the ring at the time of the Fall. Sauron actually fought in the battle of the Last Alliance, which could have proved difficult if he was just an eye wreathed in flame. So he assumed a body, maybe something similar to Morgoth's. Only when his body was destroyed again is anything mentioned of this single eye wreathed in flame, IIRC. Anyway, at the time of the fellowship, and even before while he was at Dol Guldur I am sure he had a more human form.

11-20-2002, 10:56 PM	#8
GreyIstar Wight Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 116	Sauron doesn't go after the Ring personally because he is afraid, and he has minions to do his biding. After his fall against the last allience he will not take up battle personally. It was a miracle he came out and fought there too and an even bigger one that the ring was even cut off his finger. After his fall in the war of the ring his spirit does still exist though it is very weak and never able to regain his strength. __________________ Keeper of the site Ring Lord. "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."

11-21-2002, 10:10 AM	#10
Curulin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The woods of Orome. Posts: 58	Wow, thanks Sharku, always wondered about that, must have missed it when i read the letters... what did people think of the way they did it in the film? if that doesnt belong here, just dont answer... Another related question, if Maia such as Sauron or Gandalf could have their bodies destroyed, but their spirits remained, what happened to Balrogs, (which were also maia) such as Gothmog, when they got killed? __________________ Well, I'm back.

11-21-2002, 11:18 AM	#11
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The movie furthered the common misconception of spirit-Sauron, or, even worse, eye-ball Sauron. Of course it's understandable in a way, given that there are hardly any concrete images of him; and that old Sauron had been merely a spirit once or twice throughout his life up to the Ring-War. As for the fall of a Balrog, I can imagine it might look something like this: "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."