Are You Writing Serious Fantasy? II - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

OddEvenstar · 08-09-2003, 01:28 PM

Writing is one of the most important parts of my life. Like many of you, I aspire to become at least half the author Tolkien was. As for fantasy, I entered a sci-fi/fantasy writing contest several years ago...and failed miserably. I didn't really expect to win anything; it was a horrible story! It was rather the pixie-faerie type thing, but hey, I was in 3rd Grade! Funny how I haven't thought about writing another fantasy until now...I'm more into realistic fiction writing, and won a couple of awards that way. I don't have any illusions of actual potential in the way of fantasy, but Tolkien has certainly given me a lot to think about. Besides, I'm 13, I've got a long way to go!

Sirithheruwen · 05-09-2004, 04:50 PM

Okay, I have just finished reading the old AYWSF thread (all 22 pages! It took me 2 weeks!) and I have decided to resurrect this one, basicly for moral support and to see some new writers here!

I briefly posted on this thread when I first came to the Barrowdowns, but it hardly had anything to do with writing. At the moment, I am writing a fantasy story that could possibly become a duology (phrase coined by LMP. It means "two books") or even a trilogy. I havn't actually started the writing process yet, but I'm very far into the planning stage. I have my protagonists: 4 girls. (This will lead to a question I will post later in this post.) I have maps, a language, and most of the plot sorted out in my head.

The world is called Ola, and it is like one gigantic forest. In this I basicly thought, what would my dream world look like. My immeadiate answer was trees.

I will also address my language, since it has been commented on many times before (not mine, but language in general on this thread.) It is called Isca-augay, which translates directly into "scribe-language". It is only used mainly in old scrolls and ceremonies. Now, I'm no linguist. I, in fact, only speak 2 languages: English and Pig Latin. (

) However, I drew from those strengths. My language is mostly a spoof on pig-latin. Here is my complicated process:
1) I turn the English word into Pig Latin.
2) I add and/or remove letters depending on the part of speech of word.
FOR EXAMPLE:
House would translate distantly to Ohay. Similar, yet distant enough to be unrecognizable.

I have written many other things. I have written a few short stories, but I mostly write poetry. One short story I'm very fond, not to mention proud, of is "The Spire of Hope." I wrote it for a Reading assignment, and I think it is the best thing I have written to date. It is uneditted, yet I shan't get around to editing it for a long while. However, it is available on fictionpress.net. I'm under the pen name of Blissfully Unaware, if you want to check me out. You can also find many of my poems there.

Okay, here are my questions:

1) How do you overcome gender barriers? For example: my 4 protags are female, being as I'm female. My problem? I don't know how to write a male character. I've tried, and I've failed miserably. Any advice?

Okay, my mind has completely gone blank, and with this blankness has gone my questions. Oh well.

I await your replies!

Olorin_TLA · 05-09-2004, 06:10 PM

Ah, genders...;)...always tricky for peopleto know if a woman/man woulds actually act as they've written it I guess. :) It's nice to hear all your progtags are women: I ugess it's ok that most of mine are men (there are women in abundence in non-main roles, or "everyperson/background roles", just not so manym as main characters) it's simply that I'm a man, and I tend to think of my characters are being somewhat like me, so a lotendup male. :)
Well, what do you mean by failed? Could you give an example of you writing a male charatcer (if you can write female characters I'm sure you can write male ones)? I mean all human beings are varied, so it'd be foolish for anyone to think of them in terms of anything but biology as being easilly sorted into 2 groups (and even then...), so there's a lot of freedom in your characterisation. Make sure you don't go for any stereotypes, unless the charatcer's intended to be one. Well, I can't really think of any tips to give unless you could post or PM an example of your writing of a male character; who knows, maybe they're fine after all?

As for me, to answer the thread-starter, yep, I write serious fantasy. I've been influenced first by "Fanstasy" in general, which I found before Tolkien. It's been in my life for ages, like the air I breathe...I can't place it exactly with titles or dates, but it's always been there. Some clear examples would be some childnres books with dragons and wizards (non-Tolkien inspired It would seem), Enid Blyton, and then post-Tolkien stuff like Fighting Fantasy RPG novels, other Unplacable Fantasy &...Warhammer. But there were mnay earlier ones...

Hell, even Rupert had a wizard (and talking bears!) It's basically like asking Homer whether he was inspired by Greeks myths!

All quite Tolkien & D&D inspired. Then I found Tolkien at 11 years old. But I do think Tolkien has had an even stronger influence over time...his take on magic, for instance. Now my plots are my own, except I do have a dragon-slaying, because I love them :) , and I do have "Dark Lord"-syndrome. HOWEVER: I don't think that's from Tolkien. You see, in books (and RPGs and other plot-driven games) I've never been much moved by a protagonist's desire for gold or fame etc. What I want is to do some good. Whether it be an adventurer in an RPG aving some forsaken prisoners on a hellish island, or the huge (yet small) scale of the War of the Ring and Frodo's sacrifices to save the world, I want the plot to mean something, to not just be some guy out to get glory. And so if it happens on a large scale, you've gotot be up against some great deadly force. And mortal overlords just aren't the same, imho, for the most part. They're not threatning enough, for they are in the end subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else. But a Power that would be a terror to go up against is one way of achieving the kind of...meaningful...chararcters I like. Just one way.
Now I'm trying to introduce some new ideas in without upsetting the world of my stories. I'm aware that a lot of what I have has been influenced to varying degrees - hell, the whole fantasy package with its deities, magic, Elves,medieval-like era, etc, is basically a "template", and once used as a starting point, is nearly impossible to remove from your works it features in! I'm aware that had Tolkien come along today, I wouldnot have used ideas so, but only did so becuase even before I was aware of him those things were so widespread as to seem common-thread ideas, like space-ships and aliens in sci-fi (yeah, I know loads of sci-fi has neither, you know what I mean).
But I'm also aware that in the end it's plot, not setting, that matters. And with that, I'm satisfied. :) Now I just need to twiddle the 'metaphysics'...urgh, headaches. (I'm like the inquisitve reader to myself - always checking if there are situations where so-and-so should or could have done this, or why didn't they simply do this-and-that, etc. :) )

Phew, it's been really nice to get this out. :)

I'm just about to sleep, but I'll try to read your short story. :)

Sirithheruwen · 05-10-2004, 04:07 PM

Regarding male characters, you asked for an example. I don't have one on hand, since I scrapped most of them, but they just seem really "flat" or two-dimensional. I don't know reallly how my characters would act in a certain situation, or what they would say, or anything! It's very frustrating!

Unless maybe I wrote a gay character...hmmm...it would probably be a little harder, but it could get interesting!

Quote:

And mortal overlords just aren't the same, imho, for the most part. They're not threatning enough, for they are in the end subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else.

What about "Wizard of Oz" type of characters? Where you think they are all great and (possibly) immortal and all-powerful, but they're really just mortals taking up that guise? I think those characters are very interesting and add for a good plot twist at the end. Your thoughts?

Happy Writing!

Aiwendil · 05-10-2004, 04:24 PM

Sirithheruwen wrote:

Quote:

I will also address my language, since it has been commented on many times before (not mine, but language in general on this thread.) It is called Isca-augay, which translates directly into "scribe-language". It is only used mainly in old scrolls and ceremonies. Now, I'm no linguist.

My advice is that unless you are a linguist, or a very knowledgeable amateur, you avoid making fictional languages a critical component of the story. Tolkien was onto something with his idea that a world must be thoroughly self-consistent (which includes the evolution of languages) to be believable - even if the reader doesn't notice it.

Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't use fictional languages at all. I'd just avoid overusing them.

Quote:

1) How do you overcome gender barriers? For example: my 4 protags are female, being as I'm female. My problem? I don't know how to write a male character. I've tried, and I've failed miserably. Any advice?

Males and females aren't really fundamentally that different. I think you can probably write male characters better than you realize. You may be over-analyzing your own writing.

On the other hand, I'm fairly miserable at writing fiction, so maybe you shouldn't give my advice too much credence.

Sirithheruwen · 05-10-2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

My advice is that unless you are a linguist, or a very knowledgeable amateur, you avoid making fictional languages a critical component of the story. Tolkien was onto something with his idea that a world must be thoroughly self-consistent (which includes the evolution of languages) to be believable - even if the reader doesn't notice it. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't use fictional languages at all. I'd just avoid overusing them.

Hmmm...well, as I stated above, it's is the scribe-language, used mainly in old scrolls. These scrolls are very crucial to the story, especially the plot. They are not, so far, used in any other part of the story crucially, except maybe mentioned once or twice. So I don't think I am overusing them as of yet, but I'll look out for it! Thanks!

Imladris · 05-10-2004, 05:07 PM

Sirithheruwen , do you know any men or boys in your immediate family? If you do, study them, see what makes them tick, and then that might help you write male characters.

08-09-2003, 01:28 PM	#1
OddEvenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15	Writing is one of the most important parts of my life. Like many of you, I aspire to become at least half the author Tolkien was. As for fantasy, I entered a sci-fi/fantasy writing contest several years ago...and failed miserably. I didn't really expect to win anything; it was a horrible story! It was rather the pixie-faerie type thing, but hey, I was in 3rd Grade! Funny how I haven't thought about writing another fantasy until now...I'm more into realistic fiction writing, and won a couple of awards that way. I don't have any illusions of actual potential in the way of fantasy, but Tolkien has certainly given me a lot to think about. Besides, I'm 13, I've got a long way to go! __________________ The hands of a king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.

05-09-2004, 04:50 PM	#2
Sirithheruwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: Wind's Road Posts: 467	Ahhh, beautiful ressurection! Okay, I have just finished reading the old AYWSF thread (all 22 pages! It took me 2 weeks!) and I have decided to resurrect this one, basicly for moral support and to see some new writers here! I briefly posted on this thread when I first came to the Barrowdowns, but it hardly had anything to do with writing. At the moment, I am writing a fantasy story that could possibly become a duology (phrase coined by LMP. It means "two books") or even a trilogy. I havn't actually started the writing process yet, but I'm very far into the planning stage. I have my protagonists: 4 girls. (This will lead to a question I will post later in this post.) I have maps, a language, and most of the plot sorted out in my head. The world is called Ola, and it is like one gigantic forest. In this I basicly thought, what would my dream world look like. My immeadiate answer was trees. I will also address my language, since it has been commented on many times before (not mine, but language in general on this thread.) It is called Isca-augay, which translates directly into "scribe-language". It is only used mainly in old scrolls and ceremonies. Now, I'm no linguist. I, in fact, only speak 2 languages: English and Pig Latin. ( ) However, I drew from those strengths. My language is mostly a spoof on pig-latin. Here is my complicated process: 1) I turn the English word into Pig Latin. 2) I add and/or remove letters depending on the part of speech of word. FOR EXAMPLE: House would translate distantly to Ohay. Similar, yet distant enough to be unrecognizable. I have written many other things. I have written a few short stories, but I mostly write poetry. One short story I'm very fond, not to mention proud, of is "The Spire of Hope." I wrote it for a Reading assignment, and I think it is the best thing I have written to date. It is uneditted, yet I shan't get around to editing it for a long while. However, it is available on fictionpress.net. I'm under the pen name of Blissfully Unaware, if you want to check me out. You can also find many of my poems there. Okay, here are my questions: 1) How do you overcome gender barriers? For example: my 4 protags are female, being as I'm female. My problem? I don't know how to write a male character. I've tried, and I've failed miserably. Any advice? Okay, my mind has completely gone blank, and with this blankness has gone my questions. Oh well. I await your replies! __________________ "My name is Mallard, but you can call me Duck." ~Random Saying, compliments of Sirith and her best friend, concerning a book.

05-09-2004, 06:10 PM	#3
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ah, genders...;)...always tricky for peopleto know if a woman/man woulds actually act as they've written it I guess. :) It's nice to hear all your progtags are women: I ugess it's ok that most of mine are men (there are women in abundence in non-main roles, or "everyperson/background roles", just not so manym as main characters) it's simply that I'm a man, and I tend to think of my characters are being somewhat like me, so a lotendup male. :) Well, what do you mean by failed? Could you give an example of you writing a male charatcer (if you can write female characters I'm sure you can write male ones)? I mean all human beings are varied, so it'd be foolish for anyone to think of them in terms of anything but biology as being easilly sorted into 2 groups (and even then...), so there's a lot of freedom in your characterisation. Make sure you don't go for any stereotypes, unless the charatcer's intended to be one. Well, I can't really think of any tips to give unless you could post or PM an example of your writing of a male character; who knows, maybe they're fine after all? As for me, to answer the thread-starter, yep, I write serious fantasy. I've been influenced first by "Fanstasy" in general, which I found before Tolkien. It's been in my life for ages, like the air I breathe...I can't place it exactly with titles or dates, but it's always been there. Some clear examples would be some childnres books with dragons and wizards (non-Tolkien inspired It would seem), Enid Blyton, and then post-Tolkien stuff like Fighting Fantasy RPG novels, other Unplacable Fantasy &...Warhammer. But there were mnay earlier ones... Hell, even Rupert had a wizard (and talking bears!) It's basically like asking Homer whether he was inspired by Greeks myths! All quite Tolkien & D&D inspired. Then I found Tolkien at 11 years old. But I do think Tolkien has had an even stronger influence over time...his take on magic, for instance. Now my plots are my own, except I do have a dragon-slaying, because I love them :) , and I do have "Dark Lord"-syndrome. HOWEVER: I don't think that's from Tolkien. You see, in books (and RPGs and other plot-driven games) I've never been much moved by a protagonist's desire for gold or fame etc. What I want is to do some good. Whether it be an adventurer in an RPG aving some forsaken prisoners on a hellish island, or the huge (yet small) scale of the War of the Ring and Frodo's sacrifices to save the world, I want the plot to mean something, to not just be some guy out to get glory. And so if it happens on a large scale, you've gotot be up against some great deadly force. And mortal overlords just aren't the same, imho, for the most part. They're not threatning enough, for they are in the end subject to the same weaknesses as everyone else. But a Power that would be a terror to go up against is one way of achieving the kind of...meaningful...chararcters I like. Just one way. Now I'm trying to introduce some new ideas in without upsetting the world of my stories. I'm aware that a lot of what I have has been influenced to varying degrees - hell, the whole fantasy package with its deities, magic, Elves,medieval-like era, etc, is basically a "template", and once used as a starting point, is nearly impossible to remove from your works it features in! I'm aware that had Tolkien come along today, I wouldnot have used ideas so, but only did so becuase even before I was aware of him those things were so widespread as to seem common-thread ideas, like space-ships and aliens in sci-fi (yeah, I know loads of sci-fi has neither, you know what I mean). But I'm also aware that in the end it's plot, not setting, that matters. And with that, I'm satisfied. :) Now I just need to twiddle the 'metaphysics'...urgh, headaches. (I'm like the inquisitve reader to myself - always checking if there are situations where so-and-so should or could have done this, or why didn't they simply do this-and-that, etc. :) ) Phew, it's been really nice to get this out. :) I'm just about to sleep, but I'll try to read your short story. :) __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!" Last edited by Olorin_TLA; 05-13-2004 at 05:43 PM.

05-10-2004, 05:07 PM	#7
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	Sirithheruwen , do you know any men or boys in your immediate family? If you do, study them, see what makes them tick, and then that might help you write male characters.