Silence of the Elves

[Reyna Evergreen]

Yeah, you all heard me, the SILENCE of the Elves (no, not lambs, ELVES!!) We all know that Elves are experts in healing, weaponery, sight, language...the list goes forever on. As I was reading The Two Towers I thought that, if Sauron would have been smart enough, he would have taken in a few elves, and persuade them to come to his side, without corrupting them and turning them into orcs. With enough elves on his side, he may have won the War of The Ring, since the have keen eyesight, knowledge, and are able to use most any weapon, he would be virtually un-stoppable. What I don't get is, if Tolkien described Sauron as being a smart but wicked being, wouldn't he have thought of bringing elves to his evil ways? oO(not that I would want that to happen, but I thought of it, what the 'could be'...)Oo

[Lyliac]

well, he did bring elves to his evil ways when he convinced them to make those rings. sort of. but as of during the war, it would have been very hard to get elves to turn moderatly evil on such short notice. if he didn't totally corrupt them into orcs, they probably would have turned to their own self intrest and betrayed him, somehow. and the elves that were taken into his service would have had to been pretty dumb, considering their fights with him and melkor.

[Telchar]

As Elrond said during the Council:

Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas.

[Kuruharan]

And even when the Elves made the Rings of Power they had been tricked. They did not know that Sauron was the one giving them all the helpful advice.

Aside from his alleged warping of Elves into Orcs, Morgoth was able to place such terror on a few of the Noldor that they would do his will, but I don't think that Sauron ever accomplished that feat in his days as Dark Lord.

[ April 21, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Arwen Imladris]

I think that maybe Sauron could persuade a couple of elves, but not enouph to make a difference. It would be very hard to do so without corrupting them. And I don't think that Sauron could have put up with many elves for very long. In this case, opposites do not attract.

[Birdland]

Reading this thread made me wonder something: were there any elves stuck on "the wrong side of the mountains", so to speak, when Sauron conquered Mordor?

In other words, were there any Southern or Eastern Elves, or were there only Men in those lands?

[Lindolirian]

Hey thats an interesting idea! Frodo did say that he had seen a map of Mordor made by the Elves when the Dark Lord was hiding, but i think no one actually lived there cause the land was too evil or whatever. I mean even after the War of the Rong Aragorn was very careful about purifying Minas Morgul, Gorgoroth, and the rest of Mordor because it was filthy with evil. so probably not. But it would be a good Fan Fiction idea even tho it didn't really happen.... but hey thats what fan fic is all about!

[inglorion]

With enough elves on his side, he may have won the War of The Ring, since the have keen eyesight, knowledge, and are able to use most any weapon, he would be virtually un-stoppable. What I don't get is, if Tolkien described Sauron as being a smart but wicked being, wouldn't he have thought of bringing elves to his evil ways?

I don't see the need for Sauron to persuade elves into his armies. He had men, orcs and trolls and most important of all his nine nazgûl. Their were few elves in ME who could stand against the nine, or even against a few of them. If Sauron really wanted to become unstoppable he had to persuade elves as Glorfindel, Celeborn and Galadriel or Elrond. Their ain't many elves left in ME of their stature and with that kind of power in arms and knowledge, and I think Sauron even had more knowledge (especially about the thing that only mattered to him: the One Ring). As for elves having keen eyesight (whatever he may want that for), he didn't need eyesight. He had the nine to purchase the Ring by a far deadlier sence, they were just attracted to it because they felt it.

In my opinion Sauron really did not need any elves for his army or any counsel. The only thing that made 'the good guys' win was luck, pure luck. A few examples:
- The tower of Cirith Ungol where Sam finds that most of the orcs are killed already for him.
- When Frodo and Sam are dressed as orcs and running along with that company of orcs and with great luck they came out of disaster.

Sauron was in all ways superior to the Fellowship and their friends (except maybe knowledge), but he should have thought of them wanting to destroy the Ring. That was the only fault he made and it was partly disastrous to him.

were there any elves stuck on "the wrong side of the mountains", so to speak, when Sauron conquered Mordor?

In the Silmarillion it is said that on the way of the elves to Valinor every now and than elves would stop and stay there or wander in other directions (the Avari), and their is the story of Lenwë and his people (the Nandor), who turned southward at the great River Anduin and they dwelt in the south. Denethor, son of Lenwë, again came up to the north with lots of that folk, but many elves stayed in the South.
I think their are elves in most parts of ME, except in the most evil places as Mordor, but south and east of it I guess there are elves. In the east their are elves for sure, for many of the first elves were frightened of Oromë and refused the summoning of the Valar. They might have been corrupted and have become orcs, but I guess there's some of them left.

[lathspell]

Sorry people,

I was posting under my brothers name. The post before this one was mine. My apologies.

greetings, lathspell

[Orodhromeus]

Weren't orcs corrupted elves in the first place?

[lathspell]

Yes, they were, but not with the same senses and habbits.

[haste]

I hardly believe any of the elves would or could be persauded by Sauron what so ever. Because even in the case of Feanor he did evil things and was really pushing the envelope but he never did it in order to be evil he was ruled by emotion and he hated the dark and evil ones more then he hated anything else. But many still consider Feanor to be quite evil. I just dont see any elves joining Sauron at all. They may be captured but they would never turn. For they know they are immortal and have the opportunity to come back.

[Carannillion]

The orcs were corrupted elves, but they had been totally destroyed (as elves) in the process. No elegance left there...

The defeat of Sauron ws not really just pure luck. The orcs who killed each other were Sauron's servants. They acted as they had been raised to do. They were beings of chaos and evil deeds. Melkor was the one that first planted the seed of lies, and thus mistrust, hate and so on, in ME, and Sauron was his successor. Sauron brought his defeat on himself. He did not lack knowledge, he was too evil and too corrupted (as we know, he was originally one of the followers of Aulë, tricked and corrupted to "the Dark Side" by Melkor) to see that anyone might be of pure enough hart that they actually considered destroying the One Ring. He discovered it in the end, but too late.

This destruction itself is another thing. When standing before the pit, Frodo at last gave in to the succumbing power of the Ring, and claimed it for his own. We can sort of thank Gollum for destroying the Ring, in his own folly.

I actually thought of two other new topics now:

1. Would Sam have acted differntly on Mount Doom, had he been the Ringbearer (say if Frodo had died during the journey)? In other words: Would Sam, as Ringbearer, have thrown the Ring into the fire, or would he too have succumbed to the power of the Ring?

2. What happened to Gollum after he died? Did he visit the Halls of Mandos before leaving ME, did he go to Hobbit-Heaven (or Hobbit-Hell), did he go directly to Ilúvatar or was he perhaps thrown into the Void, with Melkor?

... *pondering so hard that you can actually hear the creaking of old, rusty brain cells starting to work again* ...

[Kuruharan]

Well, he certainly went to Mandos when he died. That was the nature of his spirit that nothing outside the intervention of Iluvatar could change. Even with all that Gollum had done, I rather doubt that Eru would personally involve himself in this case. Other than that...

[lathspell]

I don't Sam would get a control over the Ring if he had it from the beginning. He would just bear it as did Frodo and problaby do the same thing as Frodo in the end, refuse to throw it in the cracks of doom. As Gandalf points out in The Shadow of the Past, the Ring's power starts inmediately after you've got it.
Sam did give the Ring back to Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, but at that time he only used it a short time, and his love for Frodo was greater. Frodo was appointed for the mission, not Sam. But if Frodo was killed in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, or by Shelob, I guess there is a way Sam might have thrown the Ring in the cracks of doom. His love for his master, Frodo, and his hate against the Ring might prove greater than the powers of the One Ring. Than he will be able to finish the mission, but that's only when he can beat the Ring.

This of course is only speculation, but it's a way to see things.


Carannillion - what about the mingling of orcs when Frodo and Sam are running along with them? At the end of their trip doom awaits them for certain, but they are saved by luck. Or are there other powers at work of which we don't know (yet)?

greetings,
lathspell

[Lyliac]

I actually think that if Frodo really died after the Shelob incident, then Sam would not have left his side, because shortly after Frodo is taken away Sam scolds himself for not being where he needed to be-by Frodo's side. If Frodo died before the Shelob incident, I don't think Sam would have gotten very far, or would have realized he was not meant to do the job. I don't think he felt the pressure of the ring and the importance of it being destroyed as much as Frodo had, therefore leading to him not even reaching the Cracks of Doom.

[lathspell]

eeehmm... Sam was in fact leaving Frodo, after long and hard thinking, because he thought him dead. He was grieved and lost, but he felt the urgency of the Destruction of the Ring. Here are a few quotes of Sam:

'Let me see now: if we're found here, or Mr. Frodo's found, and that Thing's on him, well, the Enemy will get it. And that's the end of all of us, of Lorien, of Rivendell, and the Shire and all. And there's no time to lose, or it'll be the end anyway. The war's begun, and more than likely things are all going the Enemy's way already. No chance to go back with It and get advice or permission. No, it's sit here till they come and kill me over master's body, and gets It; or take It and go.' He drew a deep breath. 'Than take It, it is!'

In this quote he surely sees the need of their quest and the importance to go on and leave his Master.

'Good-bye, master, my dear!' he murmured. 'Forgive your Sam. He'll come back to this spot when the job's done - if he manages it. And then he'll not leave you again. Rest you quiet till I come; and may no foul creature come anigh you! And if the Lady could hear me and give me one wish, I would wish to come back and find you again. Good-bye!'

In this quote he assumes Frodo to be dead and that he has to go and fullfill their task. He doesn't really hesitate to go, for he knows he must, but he really wants to come back, impossible though it may seem.

'If only I could have my wish,' he sighed,'to go back and find him!' Then at last he turned to the road in front and took a few steps: the heaviest and most reluctant he had ever taken.

And in this quote he finally sets of into Mordor. That he doesn't come very far doesn't mean, he wouldn't go at all. He was planning to go, but his waiting was his fortune, for by the orcs he learned that Frodo was still alive.

So after all, I think Sam would leave Frodo there. And he would go into Mordor, and he might fullfill his quest, for he might regain power against that Land and the Ring, because of the love for his Master the Ring might not conquer him and he might be able to throw in it Mount Doom.

A new question: if Frodo was dead and Sam had done the job, would Gandalf and Gwaihir be able to find and rescue Frodo before it was all too late?

[Orodhromeus]

A new question: if Frodo was dead and Sam had done the job, would Gandalf and Gwaihir be able to find and rescue Frodo before it was all too late?

What do you mean lathspell? If Frodo was dead, there's no reason to rescue him in the first place. It would be too late if he was dead. If Sam succeeded alone, Gwaihir & Gandalf would rescue Sam only at Mount Doom. Then probably the Men of Gondor & Ithilien would reach Cirith Ungol to kill the Orcs & free the Haradrim/Easterlings (cf: The Field of Cormallen), and take Frodo's body to Minas Tirith eventually.

[Lyliac]

lathspell-After the Orcs get Frodo, Sam says his side was my Frodo

'How may are there?' he thought. 'Thirty or fourty from the tower at least, and a lot more than that from dwon below, I guess. How may can I kill before they get me? They'll se the flame of the sword, as soon as I draw it, and they'll get me sooner or later. I wonder if any song will ever mention it: How Samwise fell in the High Pass and made a wall of bodies round his master. No, no song. Of couse not, for the Ring'll be found, and there'll be no more songs. I can't help it. My place is by Mr. Frodo. They must understand that-Elrond and the Council, and the great Lords and Ladies with all their wisdom. Their plans have gone wrong. I can't be their RIng-Bearer. Not without Mr. Frodo.

So, Sam really did want and felt that he had to stay by Frodo's side.

[Carannillion]

Ah yes, good one, Iathspell.

"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Seriously, I said "...not really just pure luck...". I think that yes, we have to give Fortuna her well-earned attention in some cases, but we can not blame it all on her. Like you said, "Or are there other powers at work of which we don't know (yet)?"
Take a look at your own signature... Sometimes I get the feeling that there is even more to Gandalf than we already know and assume. At least he knows a lot more than we can possibly imagine - of course, he was Olórin in the Undying Lands, most learned of all the Maia. Any other powers? I am not sure if I want to speculate in that, but I will not say that it is impossible that the Valar - or even Ilúvatar - sent more than just the Istari to help the peoples of Middle-Earth.

Now, the orc-running-episode.
The orcs were, as mentioned, Sauron's servants. They were like him. They had no reason to believe that anyone in their ranks would be anything else than orcs. They were from different places, both big and small orcs, and so Sam and Frodo in good disguises should not really pose any problem. These orcs were also tired, and so even if they did suspect any monkey business, they would probably just let it pass, to aviod any extra trouble or stress. They did not know - like the border guards did - that a pair of brave hobbits were headed to Mount Doom with the one thing which could destroy everything. They probably did not even know anything about the Ring at all.

Luck? Perhaps. A little bit, yes.
Excellent planning from Gandalf? Oh, yes indeed.

Gandalf's sewing toghether of things, to make the war come to a climax just when Frodo and Sam would need it the most was brilliant. The parting of the fellowship - or any such event which would lead to Frodo having to do his quest with fewer or no followers - had probably been calculated.
The Nazgûl outside Mordor in the moment it all went down, their leader dead, and so on...