Was Gollum's slip the only way? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tarthang · 05-03-2002, 01:42 PM

Short of a Vala coming to Middle-Earth, it is doubtful that anyone in middle-earthhad power over the ring (discounting Sauron). Tom Bambadil was not affected by the ring, but weather or not he had power over it is debatable.
Personally, I believe Sam would have been able to shove Frodo into the Cracks of Doom were it necessary. But then again, while Frodo had lost the battle to resist the Ring's influence to put it on, we never fully got to see wether or not Frodo mastered the Ring or it he.

Parmawen · 07-30-2005, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarthang

Personally, I believe Sam would have been able to shove Frodo into the Cracks of Doom were it necessary. But then again, while Frodo had lost the battle to resist the Ring's influence to put it on, we never fully got to see wether or not Frodo mastered the Ring or it he.

I'm assuming Frodo was mastered by the ring, as opposed to mastering the ring. I thought that he had succumbed to the ring at last and could not resist it's pull, hence putting it on. Besides, Frodo was so weak at that point there's no way he could have won over the force of Sauron.

As for Sam, I don't really believe he could have pushed his master into Mount Doom. His love and devotion for Frodo were stronger than his feelings for Middle-Earth, as far as I could tell. He always seemed to have a smaller perspective of the world, and he'd hold the smaller, familiar things like Frodo closer to him than the wide, broader idea of the world.

In the big picture, I don't think Frodo himself would have been able to destroy the ring, and Sam wasn't about to push him over, so I suppose, sad as it is, it really was the only way for it to be destroyed. I hated in the movie how it's Frodo and Gollum fighting that ends with Gollum slipping over, while in the book, he was dancing with glee, was he not? The movie shows a darker, more evil side of Frodo that I don't like to believe really was there. The ring began with violence, and ended in violence in the movie. It just didn't seem like something Frodo would do. Although he had changed a lot through the movies, so it could have been part of his change. Still, I thought Tolkien handled it much better in the books, leaving us with faith in Frodo and his soul, and content that the Ring was destroyed.

Perhaps the finality of Gollum being destroyed along with the rest of evil (orcs, Sauron, the ring itself) puts an official end to everything, guaranteeing no cheesy sequals and leaving all ends tied up. That way we never have to wonder about if Gollum was recovering from his ownership of the ring afterwards.

Kath · 07-31-2005, 09:13 AM

Just to pick out something that Parmawen mentioned about how in the film Frodo fought Gollum for the Ring. I always thought that was a little odd because we see Bilbo give up the Ring and see him suddenly become free of it and so it seems the same should happen with Frodo. But then there is some conflict with this idea because Gollum cannot feel free, he is compelled to forever search for the Ring. Is this difference then because of the length of time each bearer had it for, and should Frodo have felt free after Gollum had taken it as he does in the books or should he have been desperate to get it back as in the films?

Firefoot · 07-31-2005, 11:59 AM

Kath, the difference is that Bilbo gave the Ring away of his own volition; he wanted to. Frodo had the Ring forcibly taken from him - that is, bitten off. Gollum lost it; he had no desire to let the Ring go. When Frodo and Gollum each lost the Ring, neither had any desire to part with it.

The other difference between the book and the movie is that after Gollum bit the Ring off, Frodo did not get back up in the book. Sam had to carry him out of the mountain once Gollum had toppled into the Crack. If Frodo could have, he may well have gotten up and battled Gollum for the Ring in the book. But I don't think that he could have - the Ring, while still in existance, still had power over his mind. If the Ring had not been destroyed, I think it is possible that Frodo himself may have been destroyed (mentally, not physically) by having the Ring so forcibly taken from him after claiming it for his own. Frodo was only at peace after the Ring was destroyed. Even Gollum only lost the Ring; it had not been taken directly from him. Frodo was in such a bad mental state at that point that I don't know if he could have recovered.

Parmawen · 07-31-2005, 08:34 PM

To bounce off of what Kath said, it could also be the difference in their minds. Gollum had a much weaker mind, and had grown used to possessing the ring after succumbing to its power. It's easy to think that Bilbo had a stronger mind and therefore was able to escape from its power more often, while it was the only thing Gollum had ever loved. Of course, they were both some form of Hobbit, relatively, so the hobbit-strong mind characteristic doesn't quite work...

08-05-2005, 02:14 PM

Bilbo was able to give up the ring only because it was going to Frodo, and with much help from Gandalf.
"...its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing ot on to someone else's care-and that only at an early stage...".
Frodo could have voluntarily given it up to Sam or Gollum, but I don't think he was in a state to do so anymore because I do not think he was able to exercise that much of his own free will. (He could not even keep his own hands off it, Sam had to hold them).

Rememberring that Sam held Frodo's hands to keep him from putting the ring on in the end, I think another possible answer to "How to destroy the ring?" would be that Sam could have restrained Frodo in some way (those dear Elven ropes?), and made the ring fall from Frodo (cut the chain, "dumped" it off his head, etc.) Remember the ring did not affect Sam when he wasn't in possession of it (no extra weight to carrying Frodo, in fact it was less). Or possibly when the Nazgul arrived, they would have somehow attacked Frodo in some way that he or they inadvertently lost the ring over the Cracks of Doom.

Remember that Gandalf was able to quickly return the package containing the ring to the mantle when Bilbo placed it there and it fell? I wonder if he or someone else could have quickly tossed it over the edge without ill effects?

Finally, I do not think that Gollum flung himself into the cracks of doom or that he was pushed in by some "hand of God." I think it was the ring itself that pulled him in. After Gollum attacked Frodo just before enterring Mount Doom, Sam saw Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice,
" Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself ino the Fire of Doom."

So, the wheel of fire, i.e. the RING ITSELF, spoke these words to Gollum, and as Gollum did not heed them, he was cast into the Fire of Doom--along with the ring. So it seems that the ring brought its fate upon itself.

We have seen in other places where evil fell upon itself to its own undoing--the orks fighting in the tower at Cirith Ungol, the two companies of orks on the plains of Mordor fighting to reach the gate first, and upon the plains when they had Merry and Pippin. Also, Saruman fighting with Sauron to both their loss. I think that is a very fitting ending here that the ring in the end destroyed itself--anyway I like it that way.

07-31-2005, 09:13 AM	#3
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Just to pick out something that Parmawen mentioned about how in the film Frodo fought Gollum for the Ring. I always thought that was a little odd because we see Bilbo give up the Ring and see him suddenly become free of it and so it seems the same should happen with Frodo. But then there is some conflict with this idea because Gollum cannot feel free, he is compelled to forever search for the Ring. Is this difference then because of the length of time each bearer had it for, and should Frodo have felt free after Gollum had taken it as he does in the books or should he have been desperate to get it back as in the films? __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

07-31-2005, 08:34 PM	#5
Parmawen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stuck in the center of Spooky Hollow... Posts: 75	To bounce off of what Kath said, it could also be the difference in their minds. Gollum had a much weaker mind, and had grown used to possessing the ring after succumbing to its power. It's easy to think that Bilbo had a stronger mind and therefore was able to escape from its power more often, while it was the only thing Gollum had ever loved. Of course, they were both some form of Hobbit, relatively, so the hobbit-strong mind characteristic doesn't quite work... __________________ I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew. Of wind I sang, I wind there came, and in the branches blew... -Galadriel

08-05-2005, 02:14 PM	#6
Gwaihen Guest Posts: n/a	Ways to give up the ring... Bilbo was able to give up the ring only because it was going to Frodo, and with much help from Gandalf. "...its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing ot on to someone else's care-and that only at an early stage...". Frodo could have voluntarily given it up to Sam or Gollum, but I don't think he was in a state to do so anymore because I do not think he was able to exercise that much of his own free will. (He could not even keep his own hands off it, Sam had to hold them). Rememberring that Sam held Frodo's hands to keep him from putting the ring on in the end, I think another possible answer to "How to destroy the ring?" would be that Sam could have restrained Frodo in some way (those dear Elven ropes?), and made the ring fall from Frodo (cut the chain, "dumped" it off his head, etc.) Remember the ring did not affect Sam when he wasn't in possession of it (no extra weight to carrying Frodo, in fact it was less). Or possibly when the Nazgul arrived, they would have somehow attacked Frodo in some way that he or they inadvertently lost the ring over the Cracks of Doom. Remember that Gandalf was able to quickly return the package containing the ring to the mantle when Bilbo placed it there and it fell? I wonder if he or someone else could have quickly tossed it over the edge without ill effects? Finally, I do not think that Gollum flung himself into the cracks of doom or that he was pushed in by some "hand of God." I think it was the ring itself that pulled him in. After Gollum attacked Frodo just before enterring Mount Doom, Sam saw Frodo as "a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice, " Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself ino the Fire of Doom." So, the wheel of fire, i.e. the RING ITSELF, spoke these words to Gollum, and as Gollum did not heed them, he was cast into the Fire of Doom--along with the ring. So it seems that the ring brought its fate upon itself. We have seen in other places where evil fell upon itself to its own undoing--the orks fighting in the tower at Cirith Ungol, the two companies of orks on the plains of Mordor fighting to reach the gate first, and upon the plains when they had Merry and Pippin. Also, Saruman fighting with Sauron to both their loss. I think that is a very fitting ending here that the ring in the end destroyed itself--anyway I like it that way. Last edited by Gwaihen; 08-05-2005 at 06:25 PM.

05-03-2002, 01:42 PM	#1
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	Short of a Vala coming to Middle-Earth, it is doubtful that anyone in middle-earthhad power over the ring (discounting Sauron). Tom Bambadil was not affected by the ring, but weather or not he had power over it is debatable. Personally, I believe Sam would have been able to shove Frodo into the Cracks of Doom were it necessary. But then again, while Frodo had lost the battle to resist the Ring's influence to put it on, we never fully got to see wether or not Frodo mastered the Ring or it he.

07-31-2005, 11:59 AM	#4
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	Kath, the difference is that Bilbo gave the Ring away of his own volition; he wanted to. Frodo had the Ring forcibly taken from him - that is, bitten off. Gollum lost it; he had no desire to let the Ring go. When Frodo and Gollum each lost the Ring, neither had any desire to part with it. The other difference between the book and the movie is that after Gollum bit the Ring off, Frodo did not get back up in the book. Sam had to carry him out of the mountain once Gollum had toppled into the Crack. If Frodo could have, he may well have gotten up and battled Gollum for the Ring in the book. But I don't think that he could have - the Ring, while still in existance, still had power over his mind. If the Ring had not been destroyed, I think it is possible that Frodo himself may have been destroyed (mentally, not physically) by having the Ring so forcibly taken from him after claiming it for his own. Frodo was only at peace after the Ring was destroyed. Even Gollum only lost the Ring; it had not been taken directly from him. Frodo was in such a bad mental state at that point that I don't know if he could have recovered.