Could the Balrog use the One Ring?

[Iarhen]

He was a maia, too. He was mighty both in his powers as well as in his will to dominate others (the orcs) and the hatred he had against Elves and Men...

Given the opportunity, when hew as chasing the Fellowship in Moria, could he use the One Ring and, eventually, take Sauron's place?

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, the Balrog was clearly less powerful than Sauron. So, had he succeeded in taking the Ring and become its bearer, he would have succumbed to its will, which was the will of Sauron. So he would have ended up either as a sevant of Sauron and given the Ring up willingly to him, or he would have tried to challenge Sauron and died in the process. Either way, it's likely Sauron would have got the Ring. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Yes he could have taken the ring. It's seems wierd, but it was possible. About taking Sauron's place, no. The Saucepan Man basically said it. Gandalf wasn't as powerful as Sauron and Gandalf defeated the Balrog. So I really don't think the balrog could have taken Sauron's place.

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[Eol Telemnar]

I like that. The Balrog could take it, but would die or become Sauron's servent. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Burzdol]

Do you think that it would try to stay in hiding like Gollum, or would it openly challange Sauron?

[Mungo of Bracegirdle]

I don't think he would hide in the mountains like Gollum. Remember that at the time that Gollum found the Ring, Sauron was not very powerful. The Ring knew this; so, It made Gollum retreat into the mountains. This was pretty much a safety measure. The Ring put itself into "storage" and decided to fall off Gollum's finger when it thought that it was the right moment. If the Belrog got the Ring, It most likely would "make" him come out into the open. That way, Sauron could easily spot it and take it for His own.

Cheers,
Mungo

[Telchar]

Assumption, Assumption, Assumption!

Nothing has been written on the subject - so we will never know - perion.

Those who claim that the Balrog could not, with succes, challenge Sauron are wrong because they just doesn't know - as are those who say the opposite - if you wan to try to make conclusions, then try to find reference cases:

How strong would one need to be to challenge Sauron?
Well if Sauron had the Ring you would need an army such as that formed in the last Alliance

If neither had the Ring - well - basicly it would need alot more than was availeble in WoTR...

If the person in question had the ring?
Well Gandalf speculates what would happen if Saruman got the Ring - Gandalf wouldn't take the Ring because he feared what he might become - even so with non-maiar such as Elrond and Galadriel, Specially the latter had a clear notion that she would be victorious against Sauron - and not without reason.

So basicly I can se no reason to think that the Balrog of Moria wouldn't ba able to match Sauron if he had the Ring. Furthermore, The Balrog being evil, would profit more from the power of the ring than would a non-evil person.

Cheers T

[Tar-Alcarin]

Yes but, how powerful was Sauron really during the War of the Ring. He didnt have the power of the ring this time and he was missing a finger. He probably would have as much power as a balrog. Keep in mind that Gandalf won only because the Valar helped him. The balrog probably couldve destroyed saurons form, but not his spirit.

[Lord of Angmar]

That is true, Telchar, that we do not know. We can only speculate. It seems to me that speculation makes for some of the most interesting conversation on this website.

So basicly I can se no reason to think that the Balrog of Moria wouldn't ba able to match Sauron if he had the Ring. Furthermore, The Balrog being evil, would profit more from the power of the ring than would a non-evil person.

Think of it logistically. The Balrog would have no force to match Sauron's. While it is true that Balrogs played a large part in the armies of Morgoth, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they would have the intelligence necessary to be capable of commanding an army, especially not one large enough to counter Sauron's immense force. Why, then, would the Balrog wish to challenge a more powerful being than itself, with a smaller force and presumably a far less cunning mind, when it could far more easily simply hand over the Ring to Sauron (who it can tentatively be assumed based on the Fellowship of the Ring was recognized by the Balrog of Moria as a superior), reap the rewards of having served his master loyally, and live life comfortably as a Captain of Sauron and feared member of his power structure (i.e. the Witch King and the Mouth of Sauron)? Why risk all this to fight a war against Sauron when both Sauron and the Balrog have, presumably, the same basic goal: to ensure that the forces of evil have a stranglehold over Middle-earth? Handing the Ring over to Sauron would ensure victory for Sauron and his allies (among whom the Balrog would have been chief after giving over the Ring). Not handing it over and warring with Sauron would weaken any forces the Balrog commanded, as well as Sauron's army, thus making them much more vulnerable to attacks and defeats by Gondor and its allies. It would be, in my mind, illogical.

Cheers,
Angmar

[Foolofatook]

If the Balrog were to ensnare the Ring there is no chance that he would have handed it over to Sauron. We are speculating at the level of intellegence of a Balrog but the point of the Ring was that it would take hold of its wearer. The Balrog already being evil would not have very far to fall into claiming it as his own as Frodo did. Only the Nazgul were completely immune to this fate.

As for if the Balrog could use the Ring, I would venture to guess that he could but to the same effect as if Gandalf used it. He would use it thinking for himself but in the end it would be for the purposes of Sauron. Now, could he match Sauron if he had the Ring. Perhaps if you translate the power of the Ring to the Balrog, but in the end any power gained from the Ring is Sauron's. If the Balrog were to use the Ring against Sauron it would actually make Sauron stronger.

[The Saucepan Man]

Assumption, Assumption, Assumption!

Of course! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But, as Lord of Angmar said:

It seems to me that speculation makes for some of the most interesting conversation on this website.

Tolkien himself was not above speculating on whether his more powerful characters might be able to use the Ring to defeat Sauron, as this extract from The Letters of JRRT (246) indicates:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.

As I understand it, Tolkien is saying here that, of the Wise, only Gandalf might be expected to use the Ring to defeat Sauron. And I am assuming that he means here Gandalf the White, since the suggestion is that Saruman would not have been able to do so. Tolkien goes on to speculate whether Galadriel or Elrond might have been able to overcome Sauron with the Ring. There is a suggestion that Galadriel might have been deceiving herself in believing that she would be able to defeat and supplant him. But the point is made that neither would have contemplated challenging him on a one to one basis, but rather would have built up armies until they felt able to challenge and defeat him by force.

My original assumption that the Balrog would have been defeated if it attempted to use the Ring against Sauron was based on my belief that a Maia of the lower order would have been unable to succed against such a powerful Maia as Sauron, even with the benefit of the Ring. And this seems to me to be supported by the extract quoted above, particularly:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him

It is difficult to see how a Balrog could succeed in using the Ring directly to challenge Sauron if the likes of Saruman, Galadriel and Elrond could not be expected to.

I suppose that the Balrog might try to raise armies to defeat Sauron, as Tolkien suggests Elrond and Galadriel might have done. Balrogs had commanded armies in the First Age, so there is no reason to suppose that this one would not have been able to do so. But let's not forget that the Ring was by no means neutral in all of this. It was imbued with a part of Sauron's will and wished for nothing more than to return to its Master. So it is likely that it would have betrayed the Balrog in some way in order to do so, perhaps by persuading it that it would be able to take on Sauron in a direct challenge.

So, I remain firmly of the view that, had the Balrog taken the Ring, it would have ended up in Sauron's hands one way or another.

[Lord of Angmar]

Balrogs had commanded armies in the First Age, so there is no reason to suppose that this one would not have been able to do so.

I remain skeptical of a Balrog's ability to wage a multi-theater war (which it certainly would have had to have been) against Sauron, with or without a Ring. And of course I am skeptical that a Balrog would ever have the will to do such a thing. I agree largely with what you are saying though, Saucepan. Great find on that quote (you are far more adept at finding pertinent examples in different parts of Tolkien's text than I am). My compliments as always. Excellent post.

Cheers,
Angmar

[Lord of Angmar]

Foolofatook said:

If the Balrog were to ensnare the Ring there is no chance that he would have handed it over to Sauron.

If the Balrog were to use the Ring against Sauron it would actually make Sauron stronger.

I disagree with both of these statements. I will address the latter first. It seems to me essentially impossible that an assault upon Sauron by a powerful Maiar wielding the One Ring, presumably backed by a sizeable force, would help Sauron. It might help him succeed in regaining the Ring, yes, but even that is conditional, and either way he would be guaranteed to lose a great portion of his military force.

As for the former statement, I have already explained why I disagree. You say that "the Balrog...would not have very far to fall into claiming it [the Ring] as his own as Frodo did." I am inclined to disagree. At the time that the Fellowship passed through Moria (the only logical time for a Balrog to claim the One Ring, obviously), I believe that every orc, as well as the Balrog and the Watcher in the Water, were formally or informally subject to Sauron.

[Finwe]

A Balrog might have been able to physically challenge Sauron, since they were both Maiar, but when it came to intelligence and strategy, Sauron would have taken the field. Ultimately, it is strategy and tactics that win a war, although physical strength does help.