Why are the Vanyar higher than the Noldor?

[Iarhen]

Why is it said that the Vanyar are "accounted" as the highest elves among the high ones...

Why is that? Because of their art? Because of their total obidience to the Valar?

I pressume that they are only higher than the Valar when it comes to arts. Because we know of several powerful Noldor fighting against maiar and Morgoth themselves!

I.e., Galadriel reading and knowing Sauron's thoughts, etc.

What do you think?

[Legolas]

They showed themselves to be highest by following Ingwe to Aman and remaining there regardless of what happened.

Because we know of several powerful Noldor fighting against maiar and Morgoth themselves!

There were Vanyar in the armies of Manwe who fought under the command of Eonwe, his herald.

The Noldor got themselves into all of those fights - the Vanyar didn't have such troubles because they did what they were told to in the first place, thus we don't know much about how the Noldor compare to the Vanyar in fighting (or much of anything else either).

Not much is said about them, obviously.

[to be continued later tonight]

[galadriel'smaiden]

I think it IS because of thier obedience to the Vayanar, I think I read that somewhere (over the rainbow!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[galadriel'smaiden]

I mean obedience not to themselves but Valar. heh, i'm so confsing. heh

[Meoshi]

Right. The Vanyar EARNED their high position.

[The Saucepan Man]

Ah, but were they as powerful? Being safely ensconced in Valinor, they would not have had much cause to learn the art of war. Nor would they really have need power in their bodies. I imagine them as more cerebral. But the Noldor, on the other hand, well war came as second nature to them (thanks to Feanor).

When I read the Silmarillion recently, I wondered why the Valar bothered including the Vanyar in their army in the War of Wrath, since I just didn't see them as being suited to the task ... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

You might want to take a look at this thread too: Vanyar > Noldor
I always thought that the Ñoldor rule. Sure they did some unwise things, but at least they had a life.

[Legolas]

A life of turmoil is better than a life of peace?

Since when Maedhros abandon widsom for folly? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The Noldor did make a better book, though.

Ah, but were they as powerful? Being safely ensconced in Valinor, they would not have had much cause to learn the art of war.

The Vanyar obviously were *well* trained in war if they were good enough to be included in Manwe's army. They probably received (further) training in Aman from Eonwe and his friends in command of such a mighty force.

[obloquy]

but at least they had a life.

I hate this cliche. It's always applied so ignorantly. The stories Tolkien wrote were centered around the silmarils, and it was primarily the Noldor, through family ties and allegiances, who were connected to the story of the silmarils. The Vanyar simply didn't have much part in the story Tolkien chose to tell. Does that mean they didn't 'have a life'? That they didn't do anything noteworthy? that no individual Vanya had passion as fiery as Fëanor's? that the Vanyar were just plain boring? I think, had Tolkien chosen to record the history of the Vanyar, it would have been filled with accomplishments of beauty in art, poetry, literature, and architecture; excellence of knowledge and a truly deep enlightenment; love and romances, characterized by a burning purity....

But no, I doubt there would be any killing. There would be no duels with Balrogs, and no kinslayings, and no acts of treachery. I guess you're right: they had no life.

[Maédhros]

Since when Maedhros abandon widsom for folly?

Hehe.

That they didn't do anything noteworthy? that no individual Vanya had passion as fiery as Fëanor's? that the Vanyar were just plain boring?

Well, I think they were pretty booring. They were not creators that I know of, and none I think would have the passion of Fëanor, not just any vanyar, but any elf in general.

I think, had Tolkien chosen to record the history of the Vanyar, it would have been filled with accomplishments of beauty in art, poetry, literature, and architecture; excellence of knowledge and a truly deep enlightenment; love and romances, characterized by a burning purity....

But did they bring a real progress in the world. Did they helped the evolution of Mankind? Did they even cared for them?

I hate this cliche. It's always applied so ignorantly.

In the case of the Ñoldor it's different. They were the ones who bringed progress to the world. The creators of things. They dared to do new things. While the vanyar stood still in Valinorë. The Vanvar had the more simple life but by being in their nature, I just don't see them creating new things.

[lindil]

I know all of this is just a goad to get me to write the promised essay on the Vanyar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]!

Obloquy wisely said

But no, I doubt there would be any killing. There would be no duels with Balrogs, and no kinslayings, and no acts of treachery. I guess you're right: they had no life.

Of course I am an inveterate [and veteran] pro-Vanyarist [despite my Laiquendi nick], and agree 100% with the totality of Obloquy's already quoted post.

The Vanyar > Noldor thread really does cover this debate quite thoroughly though...

One point I would like to add:

Being in Valinor even as a rock would be amazing. The whole place was hallowed i.e. filled with grace. So were all of the Elves there, as long as they did not actively resisit it. It literally soaked in. So, in short everyone there would have been incredibly fascinating by our normal standards of art, discipline or simply 'presence'.

So what we are really talking about is degrees of high attainment or existence. And within that, much clearly will be preference [based on type and upbringing], but also JRRT makes some moral valuations re: the excessive technocracy and quarrelsomeness of the Noldor that clearly show he felt they were flawed as a House of Elves, despite getting the most press. Morgoth gets the most ink as a Vala too! One could make the same argument that at least he 'did' something compared say to Lorien or Manwe. Obviously the dark side is more active than the light, superficially, but from my limited experience I can tell you that meditating for many hours a day for a few weeks is far more of an intense journey than travelling in the world [assuming one is not in a war zone that is].

I have had to use my [ again limited] martial art skills before, but as exciting as that may seem it takes hours and days to 'clear' the effects of violence from my mind and heart.

JRRT gives Manwe/Varda and the Vanyar the respective titles of 'highest' because (IMO) they were the most spiritually oriented and in the last analysis our fea is our essence, and it's maturing and growth is what we [ and equally the Elves] are here for. I could get more theological, but I will allow the interested fellow poster follow the plotted trajectory of my thoughts for themselves.

By the way the Vanyar essay is probably only a year or so away {God willing}.

What a beautiful board we have to be able to discuss such things!

[obloquy]

Seriously, Maedhros, think about what you're saying.

First of all, you completely missed my point: just because Tolkien didn't write volumes on the accomplishments of the Vanyar doesn't mean they didn't do anything noteworthy.

Secondly, you're asserting that the rebellion of the Noldor, and the atrocities that sprung from that, should be considered progress; an enrichment of Middle-earth. Hah! Violent uprisings are not progress in themselves, and are far more contemptible still when they bring no future good. Kinslayings! Treacheries! Bloodthirsty warmongering! Greed! Progress indeed.

I am not saying they were a worthless tribe -- far from it. Particularly honorable were the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin. The fact is, however, that all the good they did could have been accomplished without all the bad. The Vanyar's steadfastness of spirit and contentment sets them far above the Noldor in the reckoning of virtuous peoples. I think that is plain to see.

Edit: Excellent post, lindil. I'd love to see that essay get written. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 01, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Maédhros]

First of all, you completely missed my point: just because Tolkien didn't write volumes on the accomplishments of the Vanyar doesn't mean they didn't do anything noteworthy.

I don't mean to say that they didn't do anything important, just that it seems to me that they didn't in general have the drive of the Ñoldor nor the same abilities to create things.

Secondly, you're asserting that the rebellion of the Noldor, and the atrocities that sprung from that, should be considered progress; an enrichment of Middle-earth. Hah! Violent uprisings are not progress in themselves, and are far more contemptible still when they bring no future good. Kinslayings! Treacheries! Bloodthirsty warmongering! Greed! Progress indeed.

Unfortunately in our world, wars make scientific progress, applications etc. War is a big motivator in that. I'm basing my view on what JRRT wrote in Morgoth's Ring:Myths Transformed

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened

It seems that if the Ñoldor didn't fought against him in the way they did, Middle-earth would have lost more than Beleriand.

[Voralphion]

Because we know of several powerful Noldor fighting against maiar and Morgoth themselves!

I.e., Galadriel reading and knowing Sauron's thoughts, etc.

How do you know that Galadriel's wisdom came from being a Noldor. She was equally a Vanyar as much as a Noldor so her wisdom could have come from being a Vanyar.
Also, Fingolfin who personally fought with Morgoth was half Vanyar as well as half Noldor so who's to say what kindred of elves contributes what to the great Noldor.

[thesandman762]

There are several classes of elves, (sindarin, quenyan, High elves etc.) They are classified by their obedience to the wishes of the Poeple Across the Sea, so teh High Elves are most likely people who almost jpurneyed there, or came back agan.

[Legolas]

just that it seems to me that they didn't in general have the drive of the Ñoldor nor the same abilities to create things.

How can this 'seem' to you when you (you = any reader) know/are given aprroximately 1/3,000 as much about the Vanyar as you do about the Noldor?

It seems that if the Ñoldor didn't fought against him in the way they did, Middle-earth would have lost more than Beleriand.

What makes it not seem that way with the Vanyar taking action under the direction of Eonwe? If the Vanyar were not valiant fighters that could contribute, then Eonwe's army would've been completely Maiar.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Ailios]

You can compare half-vanyarian elves with
non-vanyarian elves and then subtract the
50 % non-vanyarin part.
For example: Feanor - 50 % noldor and Fingolfin - 50 % noldor. In this case it is
very simple because they have a common noldorian part, Finwe.
Another example is Idril, 62.5 % vanyarian vs. Caranthir - 38.5 % noldor.

[the phantom]

I don't really like to debate who was greater, because I don't believe there's a correct answer depending on your defenition of greatness and what your life experience has been.

I believe that the Vanyar and the Noldor were both necessary parts of ME. Sometimes, more reserved, thoughtful, spiritual, and other typical Vanyar adjectives are the correct approach. But sometimes, an inventive, ambitious, hasty, or warlike approach is the most beneficial, depending on the situation.

They both have pros and cons. The Noldor seemed to be the troublemakers, but on the other hand they were amazingly talented and pursued knowledge. The Vanyar were more obediant and didn't rush into things, but they and the Valar should've got up and done something about Morgoth the instant he murdered Finwe and killed the trees. Because they and the Valar waited and delayed, Morgoth had the time to multiply his orcs, create dragons, and devise other evils that would kill good people for ages to come, so in that situation their lack of action was not the correct choice.

So I would say that neither the Vanyar nor the Noldor are superior.

[Voralphion]

Feanor was not 50% Noldor and 50% Vanyar, he was 100% Noldor. His mother was Miriel who was Noldor. Fingolfin was only 50% Noldor because his mother was Indris of the Vanyar.

[lord of dor-lomin]

People say that the Vanyar never rebelled and slew their kin, BUT don't forget, Morgoth wasn't among them to corrupt them as much, he didn't steal their greatest works, and he didn't kill their king. They didn't have as much reason to rebel.

Let's say the Noldor wouldn't have gone back to ME. Then what? Beleriand gets sacked, the havens get ravaged, men never come into contact with them and therefore don't reach their peak, and Morgoth takes over the world.

People always seem to forget that Feanor's reaction to Morgoth was the correct one. Remember when he says of the Valar "In the end they will follow me"? Well, they do end up following him. They finally get off their butts and take out Morgoth, something they should've done a long time before.

The Noldor set out to take down Morgoth, and if the Valar, the Vanyar, and the Teleri would've just gone with them from the beginning, not only would they have won, but Feanor wouldn't have been forced to steal the ships, which means the kinslaying wouldn't have happenned.

In this instance, the seemingly irrational Noldor had the right idea. Peace and serenity are great, but they're not always the right answer, especially when dealing with evil.

What I'm saying here is "get off the Noldor's back"! Their circumstances were much different, and they did after all do a lot of great things. I'm sure that if the roles were reversed, there would've been a few Celegorms or Caranthirs among the Vanyar too.

(By the way, I'm not saying the Noldor were better, in fact I believe, as stated by the phantom, that one cannot definitively judge. Different circumstances = different results.)

[obloquy]

If things had been different, things would have been different.

How do you know the Valar would not have made war on Morgoth sooner if the Noldor had remained faithful? The Noldor were bad to the Valar and to the faithful Quendi of Valinor. Why should they care that Morgoth's armies and the armies of the Noldor were killing each other off?

Sometimes, more reserved, thoughtful, spiritual, and other typical Vanyar adjectives are the correct approach.

Who says that's all the Vanyar were capable of?

But sometimes, an inventive, ambitious, hasty, or warlike approach is the most beneficial, depending on the situation.

What exactly did the Noldor's pursuit of Morgoth accomplish? They failed utterly in trying to overthrow him. Progress was only made when the Valar took action.

they and the Valar should've got up and done something about Morgoth the instant he murdered Finwe and killed the trees.

You forget that Melkor was the highest being under Eru, brother of Manwë. He was answerable only to Eru himself, or to Manwë under Eru's direct orders. He wasn't just some misbehaving child, he was the mightiest being in creation, and his rights came directly from the Creator, and could only be taken away by Him. If Eru had meant Melkor's rights to be taken away as soon as he began to cause trouble, he would have dealt with him as soon as he began to disrupt the Music.

Because they and the Valar waited and delayed, Morgoth had the time to multiply his orcs, create dragons, and devise other evils that would kill good people for ages to come, so in that situation their lack of action was not the correct choice.

Melkor could not be contained by all the Valar combined in his beginning. It was only after he had expended himself in the endeavors you mention that he could be dealt with. He eventually became incarnate, and only then was it possible to execute him without apocalyptic consequences, if at all.

Let's say the Noldor wouldn't have gone back to ME. Then what? Beleriand gets sacked, the havens get ravaged, men never come into contact with them and therefore don't reach their peak, and Morgoth takes over the world.

No, see, when you adjust one thing, everything changes. How can you say Morgoth would've been content in Beleriand without the Noldor being there? He may have set up camp in some remote corner of Aman like Ungoliantë had, and he would be threatening innocent people, not rebellious, murderous ones.

People always seem to forget that Feanor's reaction to Morgoth was the correct one.

No, it's not that people forget, it's that not everyone agrees with you.

The Noldor set out to take down Morgoth, and if the Valar, the Vanyar, and the Teleri would've just gone with them from the beginning, not only would they have won

Debatable.

but Feanor wouldn't have been forced to steal the ships, which means the kinslaying wouldn't have happenned.

The devil made him do it?

In this instance, the seemingly irrational Noldor had the right idea.

Nope. As I asked above, What did they accomplish? Morgoth was too powerful for them to overcome, and being hasty cost many of them their lives.

Peace and serenity are great, but they're not always the right answer, especially when dealing with evil.

Why not? As far as the Vanyar were concerned, Morgoth was eventually taken down, and they didn't even have to be constantly making war on him. The same would've been true of the Noldor if they had been faithful. Eventually it would've been time for the Valar to take out Morgoth anyway. Probably sooner than it did happen, actually, since, as I mentioned above, Morgoth would have been making war on people who had not turned their backs on the Valar.

Action on the part of the Valar was the only hope for defeating Morgoth. The Noldor accomplished nothing, and they may even have delayed the Valar's decision. Besides the fact that only the Valar could do it, Fëanor was overstepping his station in Arda by seeking revenge on Melkor. It was not his place to punish Melkor. The Noldor taking matters into their own hands was wrong.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Adanadhel]

I hate the Noldor! Look at all the evil they did! Did you actually say they were forced to steal the Ships!?!?!?!? Talk about revisionist history!

A comment on Vanyar works/creations. The only thing I can think of was maybe the Palantir. I always thought they were probably Vanyar in origin. And certainly not the best of their works. These were just the tidbits they threw aside to those silly men.

As for who were the best elves... its got to be the Avari. The farther you get away from them, the farther you get from the way elves were supposed to be.

Even Mandos says the calling of the elves to the west was a mistake. Elves were meant to stay in ME.

[lindil]

I will concede maedhros' point [from the other Vanyar thread?] that the Noldor 'tied Morgoth up' for what 500 years or so. But at what cost, and what level of success?

Every single community in Beleriand was decimated in whole or part excepting Cirdan's.

Maedhros earlier tried to defend the 2nd and 3rd kinslayings by saying 'we warned you', well how about offering something for the return of the Silmarill, since they did didly to get it back, excepting Celegorm and Curufin who actively hindered the quest!

How about an offer of jewels, or weapons or everlasting friendship? Anything! Sorry, the kinslayings, over an OBJECT is pitiful.

Yes they had sworn an evil and foolish oath, but 'less evil would they have done in the breaking'.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Geez, some people don't have much sympathy. Why don't you read the story of the Noldor again, this time putting yourself in their shoes instead of seeing it from your "super-holy- I wouldn't have done that" state of mind.

A bad guy that the people in power release from prison does unspeakable evil to you. You want to go after him, and you are told no, stay home. Then, you go up to your buddy's place and ask him to give you a quick ride in his boat and your buddy says no. You've just been royally screwed over, and now your friends won't even help you. How would you feel?

What exactly did the Noldor's pursuit of Morgoth accomplish? They failed utterly in trying to overthrow him.

Really?
1)They nearly completely held Morgoth in check for five hundred years.
2)Fingolfin permanently wounded Morgoth.
3)In the battle of unnumbered tears, they very nearly won the day despite all of Morgoth's balrogs and dragons. I recall that at the beginning of the battle Morgoth was afraid when Gwindor and Co made it all the way to his doors.
4)They considerably raised the quality of men.

Yes, they didn't overthrow him, but you can't say they didn't accomplish anything.

Melkor could not be contained by all the Valar combined in his beginning. It was only after he had expended himself in the endeavors you mention that he could be dealt with. He eventually became incarnate, and only then was it possible to execute him without apocalyptic consequences, if at all.

Actually, I really like this point Obloquy. I always thought he was already diminished a lot after his encounter with Shelob, enough to overthrow him anyway, but I can see that it was a good idea to let him weaken.

and he would be threatening innocent people, not rebellious, murderous ones.

And threatening innocent people is a good thing? That's exactly why the Valar shouldn't have waited to go get Morgoth, because he'd be threatening innocent people. I've always thought that the Noldor taking the brunt of his wrath and attempting to stem his evil in the north was the greatest thing they accomplished.

Morgoth was too powerful for them to overcome, and being hasty cost many of them their lives

Yes, but how many lives were saved by their sacrafice?

Eventually it would've been time for the Valar to take out Morgoth anyway

Yes, just let him run rampant and enslave part of the world for a while and then take him out. That's really noble.

As far as the Vanyar were concerned, Morgoth was eventually taken down, and they didn't even have to be constantly making war on him.

They were able to take him out without constantly making war on him because, as you stated before, he had lost lots of his power because of his fight with the Noldor.

Now remember, I don't think the Noldor were perfect, but I am tired of seeing everybody bash them.

[Maédhros]

will concede maedhros' point [from the other Vanyar thread?] that the Noldor 'tied Morgoth up' for what 500 years or so. But at what cost, and what level of success?

How about Middle-earth? Let's say that the Ñoldor don't rebel and they go along the Valar to capture Morgoth. Do you think that Morgoth at that time, when he had not spent his power over 500 years, that in such a battle only Beleriand would have been destroyed? I would estimate that in such a battle, the damage done to Middle-earth would have been far more terrible than that of the destruction of Beleriand.

Maedhros earlier tried to defend the 2nd and 3rd kinslayings by saying 'we warned you', well how about offering something for the return of the Silmarill, since they did didly to get it back, excepting Celegorm and Curufin who actively hindered the quest!

Well, didn't they offered not to kill them? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Yes they had sworn an evil and foolish oath, but 'less evil would they have done in the breaking'.

Maedhros gave his word, and he had to kept it to the very end. He was an elf of honor.

Now remember, I don't think the Noldor were perfect, but I am tired of seeing everybody bash them.

Ñoldor tried the impossible, they failed but at least they tried.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Ñoldor tried the impossible, they failed but at least they tried

Amen, Maedhros. It's nice to know someone besides the Valar has pity on them. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[obloquy]

And threatening innocent people is a good thing? That's exactly why the Valar shouldn't have waited to go get Morgoth, because he'd be threatening innocent people.

No, that was precisely my point: threatening innocent people is not good, which is why the Valar would have stepped in sooner than they did. But the Noldor did rebel, and did commit unspeakable violence, so they weren't innocent. Why should the Valar -- as well as those Quendi who did remain faithful -- fight on their behalf? Why do you believe it was Fëanor's place to decide when to punish Melkor? You completely ignored the part of my post where I mentioned rights. It was not even within Manwë's personal rights to condemn Melkor.

You've just been royally screwed over, and now your friends won't even help you. How would you feel?

You're right, I would definitely slaughter my buddy and his family and take what I wanted from him.

Really?

Yes, I stand by my statement. Nearly doesn't count when the whole situation could've been avoided. They may have had some small victories against Morgoth in Beleriand, but they created the problem to begin with by alienating their most important allies. If they hadn't gone to Beleriand to make war, and Morgoth had chosen to make trouble for the unaided Atani, I'd be willing to bet the War of Wrath would've happened a lot sooner. Again I say they didn't accomplish anything. As for the enrichment of the Atani, I'll grant you that, but I believe that is another issue entirely. The Eldar were free to leave Aman any time they wished, so I believe it would have happened anyway.

Yes, but how many lives were saved by their sacrafice?

I don't see how any were saved, specifically. Whose lives are you talking about?

Yes, just let him run rampant and enslave part of the world for a while and then take him out. That's really noble.

You think the Noldor being in Beleriand allowed anyone to live freely? I say they were enslaved. Doriath was a haven, but no thanks to the Noldor. Gondolin was safe for a while, but it would've been better if it hadn't been there at all. Options were limited when dealing with Morgoth, but all options and decisions were the Valar's. The rebels jumped the gun, plain and simple.

They were able to take him out without constantly making war on him because, as you stated before, he had lost lots of his power because of his fight with the Noldor.

Yep. They benefited by waiting for the appropriate time to act.

[lindil]

"He was an elf of honor."

Sorry friend, you willnot be able to convince me that there is an ounce of honour in killing fellow fighters of Morgoth over the Silmarill's, vow or no.

The vow was wrong.
Keeping the vow, by slaughtering other Elves in Doriath and Sirion's havens was wrong. The oath had become a demonic compulsion, not a virtue to be upheld at all costs! Do we not read over and overthat, 'the oath worked ever for Morgoth and never against.'

The Feanorians were helping Morgoth!

Just as Celebrimbor helped Sauron!

There was some seriously bad ju-ju going down here!

[lindil]

Please do not get the idea that I read the Silmarillion and Co. with a "thank God those Noldor are getting their just rewards" attitude. I do not. I am as sympathetic to their plight as the next reader. Noldor [or partially] are my 2 favorite characters in M-E to read about [Finrod and Galadriel]. So I am not in any way anti-Noldor.

But for the purposes of answering the Vanyar vs. Noldor question, I have to try and be objective and not emotional.

Why does the Silmarillion [and source texts in HoM-EX I might add] explicitly state that the Vanyar were the highest of the High-Elves.

That is the question we are [were] addressing. So we are dealing with a fact of the Legendarium [conceived in large part by Noldor, I might add!] that is inescapable. 2 facts actually.

1> the Noldor through their rebellion suffered a grave spiritual 'Fall'.

comparable to Men's fall in the Tale of Adanel and the Numenorean's Fall in the Akallabeth. These are the three events in the Legendarium explicitly labeled as a 'Fall'.

One may say that theirs was the lesser fall of the three, and I am inclined to agree, the other punishments were far more severe.

Loss of Imortality or at least extreme longevity and loss of Numenore. All permanent. With the Noldor's fall virtually all except Feanor and his sons may well get to see the outside of Mandos [ and who can really say about Maedhros, Maglor and the Amras. Amrod, being killed by his father probably got out the soonest.]
2> the Vanyar being the height of Elvendom.
-=-=-=-=-
But nonetheless, Maedhros [ the Downs poster], Lord of Dor Lomin and others who belive the Noldor were justified or in some way right to rebel, you are starting off from a point the texts simply do not support.

Yes you can point to the enrichment of the Edain, but the Valar had their own means of so doing as Numenor shows.


Also to address the strange conception that the Vanyar betrayed the Noldor by not joining with them.

So the Vanyar should have attacked the Teleri also?

Come on! If anything one could argue that the Vanyar should have helped the Teleri.

Of course he whole thing was almost certainly over long before messages could have gotten to them and they could muster their spears [ which they may well not have had yet!]. So it is a moot point, but saying the other kindreds should have rebelled against the Valar as well, is to my mind utterly bizarre and upside down.

Again I do not hate the Noldor, I can see the good things in Feanor and acknowledge that the texts clearly say that he was formed as the greatest [mightiest?] of all of the Children of Iluvatar. But Melkor was also so formed as greatest of the Valar and does anyone here seriously deny his fall?

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Just as Celebrimbor helped Sauron!

Oh come on, don't you think comparing the Feanorians slaugther in Doriath and Sirion is a bet far-fetched to compare Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's forging of the rings? Celebrimbor's motives may have been selfish, but as soon as he learnt that Annatar was lying about his identity, and was evil, they fought back.

IMO, the Feanorians actions were totally blinded by the oath and fate and the will of Illuvutar also had quite a large part to play in the Noldor's deeds. The Noldor kept him from wreaking havoc in M-E, and they also helped men to choose the right path, since many of the Avari and Nandor were unfriendly with them, and some of the Sindar were as well.

But I agree with your view that the Vanyar were the highest or greatest of the Elves, but they certainly aren't my favourites.

[lindil]

"Oh come on, don't you think comparing the Feanorians slaugther in Doriath and Sirion is a bet far-fetched to compare Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's forging of the rings?"

Obviously Celebrimbor and co. were not as ill-willed as Feanor, but they suffered from a pride that they could somehow stop time [ and the natural flow of it in parts of M-E] in order to wall it off and create Elvish paradise.

And to do so they were willing to treat with someone their elders [Galadriel at least, and Gil-Galad the putative 'High-King' of the Noldor] said was bad news.

So Sauron tempted the Eregion smiths in a spot of weakness just as Morgoth engineered the rebellion of the Noldor in a spot of weakness. It even says in UT that Celebrmbor sent Galadriel and Celeborn [at one point the founders of Eregion] packing.

So Celebrimbor was [partially] responsible for the next round of wars with Suaron. One could argue that they would have happened anyway, but a careful reading of MM's article, 'Shh it was a secret Ring' shows just how deceptive the Elves were with their own Numenorean Allies over the matter of the Rings.

Also was Celebrimbor utterly ignorant of what the none would do to Men?

So while Celebrimbor did not wreak the havoc of Feanor or his sons, he was certainly Feanor's grandson in respect to the amount of chaos he left in his wake!

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[The Saucepan Man]

I have been greatly enjoying following this discussion and some very interesting points have been made on both sides.

But one point that seems to me to shine out from the arguments of Maedhros and lord of dor-lomin is that the Noldor's rebellion and subsequent exile to ME was, however you may view it subjectively, in fact beneficial from an objective standpoint.

Obloquy argues that the Valar could not have defeated Melkor at the time he made off with the Silmarils, on the basis that he was too strong at that stage and it was not until he had expended his energy trying to subjugate ME that he was sufficiently weakened for them to defeat him. This makes perfect sense to me. It explains why the hosts of Valinor did not up and after him immediately after he had destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwe and made off with the Silmarils. It also explains why the Valar did not wish the Noldor to do so.

But, had the Noldor not followed Melkor, he would have run riot through ME, destroying the Elvish communities there (would the girdle of Melian have held forever?), and subjugating all Men to his will. By following him to ME, the Noldor were, as lord of dor-lomin has pointed out, able to keep him at bay for some 500 years, prevent Men falling under his thrall and, at the same time, raise their quality as a race.

Now, it might be said that, with Melkor running rampant through ME with no Noldor to hold him in check, the Valar would have moved sooner. But then they would have been taking him on while he was still strong. Even had he been defeated, the damage to ME would, as Madhros has pointed out, been far more terrible and extensive than that caused by the War of Wrath. Obloquy speculates that Melkor might have bored of ME and moved in on Valinor. Again, this would have prompted a conflict when Melkor was at the height of his powers. Possible victory for Melkor and, even if not, extensive damage to Valinor.

And even if the Valar held off from acting until much later, Melkor would not have been weakened by an almost perpetual state of warfare with the Noldor, and so, again, he might have won. Even if not, there would have been considerable loss of life in the resulting battle as well as considerable damage to ME.

So, is it not fair to say that the flight of the Noldor to Beleriand did actually bring about a good result in the end? I am not saying that what they did was good, but that it had a good effect, compared to what was likely to have happened had they remained in Valinor. Quite possibly less loss of life, almost certainly less damage to Arda and the saving from domination by Melkor, and the improvement, of the three great Houses of Men.

[lord of dor-lomin]

I don't see how any were saved, specifically. Whose lives are you talking about?

The elves of the havens, the men that came to the west, the elves of Ossirland, and every other man and elf that was living behind the battle lines (which means pretty much everyone). That is, unless you say that the Valar would've intervened had Morgoth started attacking innocents, but in that case, didn't you say that overthrowing him would have apocolyptic consequences because he hadn't been weakened yet?

Once again, I believe it was the destiny of the Noldor, the will of Eru, that they challenge Morgoth, protecting the world for a while and enriching the lives of men and in the end spreading Morgoth's power thin enough for him to be defeated. When that's the Noldor's doom, and the deck is stacked against them, I'd think it'd be easier to forgive them.

You think the Noldor being in Beleriand allowed anyone to live freely?

Yes. The elves of Nevrast, the elves of the havens, and the elves of Ossirland would've been wiped out very quickly without the protection of the Noldor.

Yep. They benefited by waiting for the appropriate time to act.

You're right! They did benefit by waiting, but they only benefited because of the Noldor doing what they did in ME. It was the Noldor's destiny, and it shouldn't have been hindered by the Valar nor the Teleri. The Noldor's actions were a necessary part of Eru's plan. They were doing their part!

I just noticed that Saucepan Man made some of the points I'm trying to make, so I'll give allow you to read them again.

Obloquy argues that the Valar could not have defeated Melkor at the time he made off with the Silmarils, on the basis that he was too strong at that stage and it was not until he had expended his energy trying to subjugate ME

But, had the Noldor not followed Melkor, he would have run riot through ME, destroying the Elvish communities there (would the girdle of Melian have held forever?), and subjugating all Men to his will

By following him to ME, the Noldor were, as lord of dor-lomin has pointed out, able to keep him at bay for some 500 years, prevent Men falling under his thrall and, at the same time, raise their quality as a race.

Now, it might be said that, with Melkor running rampant through ME with no Noldor to hold him in check, the Valar would have moved sooner. But then they would have been taking him on while he was still strong

the damage to ME would, as Madhros has pointed out, been far more terrible and extensive than that caused by the War of Wrath

And even if the Valar held off from acting until much later, Melkor would not have been weakened by an almost perpetual state of warfare with the Noldor

So, is it not fair to say that the flight of the Noldor to Beleriand did actually bring about a good result in the end?

Quite possibly less loss of life, almost certainly less damage to Arda and the saving from domination by Melkor, and the improvement, of the three great Houses of Men.

Mr. Saucepan, I don't know if I can possibly say Amen enough times to your post.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ]

[the phantom]

The will of Eru has been brought up, and I believe this is tied closely with the initial temptation of the Noldor.

I can't remember the exact quote, but when Melkor is released and sets out to destroy the elves, the Silmarillion clearly states that all his energy was directed at the Noldor. As for the reason, it had to do with the nature of personal satisfaction.

The Vanyar found their contentment and satisfaction at the feet of the Valar, where as the Noldor found theirs in learning and delving into new things. This is a huge difference in character, and was not the choice of the Noldor and Vanyar, but the nature that was given to them by Eru.

Now, this difference is why the Noldor were corrupted. Melkor couldn't corrupt the Vanyar, because they were satisfied serving the Valar. He didn't have anything to tempt them with. But, the Noldor existed to create and pursue knowledge, two things that Melkor could help them with considerably.

They were created in such a way that the precise thing they loved would be the exact thing that Melkor could offer.

Why would this situation be allowed to happen? Because the rebellion of the Noldor was supposed to happen. It had to happen.

Not only were they "playing their part", but the nature in which they were created would have hardly allowed for anything else.

This is one reason why I don't believe these two races can be compared on a basis of deeds and accomplishments. Both were playing their parts in the history of middle earth.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Aiwendil]

I think a little quote from the Ainulindale might put things in a bit better perspective: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

This very Augustinian idea that the existence of evil makes good better is one of the most prominent themes in Tolkien's works (interestingly, it's opposite is also a major theme). The rebellion of the Noldor is a perfect example. In itself, the flight of the Noldor was evil, or at least morally incorrect. There can be no disputing this within the parameters of Tolkien's universe; we're told it's evil. I think part of the problem many people have in trying to analyze this is that they impose other moral systems, like their own, onto Arda. But within Arda, the kind of morality that says the Vanyar are morally 'better' than the Noldor (in general) is axiomatic.

So the rebellion of the Noldor was immoral. But, as many on this thread have pointed out, some good came of it. This should be no surprise - it's just what Iluvatar warned Melkor of. The most triumphant notes of Melkor's theme are woven into the theme of Iluvatar.

Edit: Another quote I just remembered along the same lines, but bearing more directly on the present discussion (the first speaker is Manwe):

'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus, even as Eru spoke to us, shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
'And yet remain evil,' quoth Mandos.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Iarhen]

Now, again, I'm afraid I disagree with you, Iindil, in several points:

1. I can't tell otherwise about the closeness of the Vanyar to the Valar. But, even though Manwe and VArda reflected Eru's light, they did not sahre the knowledge of Eru. Again, the Vanyar were closest to the Valar, but in terms of Eru's affection, I stand my point (go back to the last paragraphs of my previous post).

2. Even though the Valar told the Noldor that their quest was doomed to failure, the Noldor were in a difficult position. First, how can they trust the Valar after one of them had done so much ill against their kin? Melkor, greatest among the Valar (then), had killed thier King and stolen their greates posessions.

How can you trust someone when other one, of the same kin and nature, had done so much evil against you?

And more to the favour of the Noldor, even though they were warned taht their quest was doomed to failure, they still fought the battle. Stubborness? No. Heroship, more likely. They were risking their lives and their eternal existence, dont forget that.

3. I can't say anything about the murdering of thier kin. But both the Noldor and the Vanyar are guilty of the same sin. In what way? The vanyar knew of the doom of the Noldor, and they didnt do anything. They were guilty in a passive way of the slaugthering of the Noldor. In waht way? Because the Vanyar did not help them when they were most needed, and chose to say with the elf-slayer kin (the VAlar). It's a sin that the Valar themselves committed. Didn't Morgoth kill most of the Noldor kin? Melkor was a Valar. So, in the same way that the Noldor were found guilty of slaying the Teleri when only some of them did it, that's the same way the Valar are guilty. One of the Valar killed the Noldor. So, who's the greatest sinner? The Valar, in their great knowledge, still murdered. The Noldor, in their need, despair and desolation, too. The Vanyar, in a passive way, also. Not an argument you can use.

4. And waiting for the green light is an argument that can be used in the favour of the Vanyar? That sounds more like cowardness.

5. But of the two sets of brothers that the Vanyar had in Aman, it was only one of them, the Noldor, that needed their help.

Do not confuse stupidity with despair, sadness and valianthood.

6. And maybe the Noldor should have chosen the blessing you speak of in the end of your post, but it was a blessing of the Valar. Probably, unknowingly, the Noldor chose a greater blessing: the one coming from Eru.

[the phantom]

So, in the same way that the Noldor were found guilty of slaying the Teleri when only some of them did it, that's the same way the Valar are guilty.

Very interesting point, Iarhen. I had never thought about that in exactly those terms before. The book said only some of the Noldor started the initial boarding of the ships, the Teleri started throwing them overboard, fighting broke out, and the majority of the Noldor started fighting in the belief that the Teleri had been ordered by the Valar to halt their march. Most of them didn't know what was going on, and can be excused in the kinslaying.

That is, unless, you believe that kinslaying for any reason is wrong, and in that case, the Teleri was just as guilty, despite the fact that they were acting in self defense (but obviously, no one is down on the Teleri).

The Teleri are excused because they were attacked, but remember, the majority of the Noldor thought that the Teleri had attacked them, so if the Teleri are excused, then so are they.

You can't pin the crimes of one or a few on a whole group of people. If you can, then Iarhen is right, the Ainur are also a bunch of murdering scum, because some of them (Melkor, Sauron, the balrogs) did bad things.

Once again, very interesting point, Iarhen.

[lindil]

First the Original Question "Why are the Vanyar higher than thr Noldor, is not dependant on the Noldorin rebellion question. We really should have a seperate thread for 'Were the noldor justified in their rebellion?'

But since we don't...

All numbered points are from Iarhen's above post.

"1. I can't tell otherwise about the closeness of the Vanyar to the Valar. But, even though Manwe and VArda reflected Eru's light, they did not sahre the knowledge of Eru. Again, the Vanyar were closest to the Valar, but in terms of Eru's affection, I stand my point (go back to the last paragraphs of my previous post)."

The Vanyar's highness had nothing to do with Ainurian 'affection'. Of that we can be sure. What it was based on [and the texts give dissenters no leeway on this point] we have only scant evidence. Their holiness, and blessedness along with their personal preferences for poetry and spears.
In the LQ1 text they alone are titled 'High Elves'.

It simply comes down to I believe, that there holiness and blessedness were descriptives of being above all other Elves, peaceful, spiritual, not given to quarellsomeness and seeking out that which is Highest. As is shown by their dwelling on taniquetil and with the King and quenn of the Valar.


"2. Even though the Valar told the Noldor that their quest was doomed to failure, the Noldor were in a difficult position. First, how can they trust the Valar after one of them had done so much ill against their kin? Melkor, greatest among the Valar (then), had killed thier King and stolen their greates posessions.How can you trust someone when other one, of the same kin and nature, had done so much evil against you?"
"

Of course not. That argument [proposed in similar form by Morgoth to Feanor, by the way!] is based upon saying the Noldor had no ability to discriminate.

Did any of the other Valar show any potential or reason to be judged as having ill-will or intent to the Noldor? No they had given much asking nothing in return.


" how can you trust..."


You read your history and ask yourself, have any of the valar ever acted unjustly against me? Answer NO, unless you are an already deluded Feanor.

2b."And more to the favour of the Noldor, even though they were warned taht their quest was doomed to failure, they still fought the battle. Stubborness? No. Heroship, more likely. They were risking their lives and their eternal existence, dont forget that."

No they were not risking their eternal existances. Stubbornes? Yes.

Yes the Noldor were heroic as the crossing of the Helcaraxe and many later events show. But the old saying 'discretion is the better part of valour' certainly applies here. The Noldor showed very little.

It says that after the Prophecy of the North that many would not turn back because of guilt at the kinslaying. That is a guilty consciece occluding reason. Not heroism. Was Feanor heroic when he abandoned the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin? Was was Feanor heroic when he then burned the ships [and the sone he refused to let stay in Valinor], was Feanor heroic, when he knew with the foreknowledge of Death that his sons could never overthrow Morgoth, but he told them to keep to their diabolical oath anyway?

Sorry, Feanor was a genius who became tragically deluded by Morgoth, by power, grief, possesiveness and anger. He was no longer thinking or acting rationally and everyone under his influence became to a greater or lesser degree similarly deluded.

Many woke up more or less, and the fact that Maedhros asked forgiveness for the Burning of the Ships shows much. But do you think the 3'C' brothers agreed with that?


3. I can't say anything about the murdering of thier kin. But both the Noldor and the Vanyar are guilty of the same sin. In what way? The vanyar knew of the doom of the Noldor, and they didnt do anything. They were guilty in a passive way of the slaugthering of the Noldor. In waht way? Because the Vanyar did not help them when they were most needed, and chose to say with the elf-slayer kin (the VAlar). It's a sin that the Valar themselves committed. Didn't Morgoth kill most of the Noldor kin? Melkor was a Valar. So, in the same way that the Noldor were found guilty of slaying the Teleri when only some of them did it, that's the same way the Valar are guilty. One of the Valar killed the Noldor. So, who's the greatest sinner? The Valar, in their great knowledge, still murdered. The Noldor, in their need, despair and desolation, too. The Vanyar, in a passive way, also. Not an argument you can use.

that is very upside down reasoning I think.

Might as well make Eru guilty for it all. HE created morgoth after all!

You must discern the role of free-will here.

The Vanyar can not be blamed for obeying the Valar without turning the Valar into something Tolkien never invisaged [after Lost Tales anyway]. That is as dubious and capricious Gods. The Valar were meant by Eru to help and guide the Children of Iluvatar. And also they were given certain policing, legislative and judicial powers,
By God Himself. The Vanyar were being obedient, trusting and patient.

If one wants to posit a morally neutral LEgendarium where all virtues are equal. Like heroism being equal to obedience to the valar you of course can, but it is no longer JRRT's legendarium, it is your own.


4. "And waiting for the green light is an argument that can be used in the favour of the Vanyar? That sounds more like cowardness."

It may sound that way, but as per above post it is clearly believed by JRRT to be the higher virtue.

Should every private in an army just go an attack at will, without waiting for the command from those who have been entrusted with the big picture and have far more information than the private [or captain or major etc...]? or should all forces be co-ordinated most effectively?

The Valar had subdued and imprisoned Melkor before, why on earth would the Noldor not think they would do it again? And they would know that they did it specifically for the Elves! Even Morgoth 'never forgot that'.

5. "But of the two sets of brothers that the Vanyar had in Aman, it was only one of them, the Noldor, that needed their help.

Do not confuse stupidity with despair, sadness and valianthood."

True the Noldor needed there help, in coming back to their senses, as Olwe tried to help them do.

Heck they could even have asked the Teleri to help them build ships!!!

And then gone on their way! Feanor was crazed by this point, as per above.

And what did the Noldor as a race have to 'despair' over? Prior to the kinslaying all but one was alive, they lost the Silmarills and the light od the 2 Trees it is true, but did the Vanyar or Teleri, maia or valar despair?

Despair is for those without hope. The Noldor had plenty to hope for had they paused and reflected.

A- The valar were certain to take care of Morgoth sooner or later and probably sooner.
B- They were still in the Noontide of their powers and had they cooled off, the Valar would have let them return to M-E sans curse.

Also re: the loss of the trees... they had lived in starlight before and were said to be quite fond of it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]!

6. "And maybe the Noldor should have chosen the blessing you speak of in the end of your post, but it was a blessing of the Valar. Probably, unknowingly, the Noldor chose a greater blessing: the one coming from Eru."

you will have to elaborate on that one.

In my final analysis, I agree with Obloquy, all the Noldor did [interms of the goal of overthrowing Morgoth] amounted to zero.

Heck it was even an Adan that killed of Glaurung! They did kill a few Balrogs in Gondolin, so zero is too harsh. Very little.

Kept him occupied, yes.

But that only postponed the true reckoning which needed the intervention of the army of the Maia, Vanyar and the repentant noldor.

From what we know of the Valar, they always responded to Morgoth or Sauron's machinations.

They would have responded to the plight of the Elves in Beleriand and the newly born men also.

Did the Noldor do many great, valiant and wonderous deeds while in Beleriand? Yes, many: the rescuing of Maedhros by Fingon. The battle of Fingolfin with Morgoth. The building of Gondolin, the slaying of Gothmog and at least 1 or 2 other balrogs.
The forging of Glamdring and sting. Finrod's befriending of Men [and later the other kings and princes].

But in terms of effective weakening of Morgoth, the slaying of the balrogs may have been the only long range good they did militarily. [not counting Turin's slaying Glaurung].

In regards to Morgoth's 'might' and when the Valar would choose to attack. It is I think specious to say that they had to wait. Why? they did not have to wait in the war of the powers? You just evacuate Beleriand [as had to happen anyway.] Presumably Tolkus and the other more warrior-esque Valar such as Orome and Aule were not even involved in the War of wrath, so Morgoth could have been subdued with them far sooner.

As for the collective guilt of the Noldor, it had to do with refusing to seek the pardon of the Valar [and presumably the teleri] and running off to be their own kings, while leaving a literal bloody mess behind them. The curse aspect of their departure was tied solely to that.

If they had returned, asked forgiveness, and then said 'we still really wish to go', the valar would have let them.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lord of dor-lomin]

In regards to Morgoth's 'might' and when the Valar would choose to attack. It is I think specious to say that they had to wait. Why? they did not have to wait in the war of the powers?

Well, if they didn't have to wait, then why did they? Feanor didn't lead the Noldor our of Valinor the minute after Melkor killed his father. He went home, and then came back to get his people.

The Valar had enough time to start acting. They could've been organizing their forces and sending word out to the leaders that they were going to move in on Melkor. If they were going to immediately go after Melkor, they could've said something instead of just sitting there.

I honestly believe that if the Valar would've immediately stood up and said something like "Feanor, don't go running off by yourself. We're going to go take care of Morgoth right away, you can go with us and fight him", I think Feanor's misguided anger towards them would've been appeased.

Plus, if they had intended on making war on Melkor immediately, they would've told the Teleri to let the Noldor hitch a quick ride so they could start the fight against him.

No, I don't believe the Valar ever seriously entertained the thought of going to war with Melkor immediately. If we think along the lines of what phantom said about fulfilling ones destiny and playing ones part, then the Valar knew they were supposed to wait, just as the Noldor knew they were supposed to go. Ideally, neither should have hindered each other.

[lindil]

I think the major cause of the initial delay ws that the making of the Sun and Moon had to happen right after the death of the trees. that was a project whose significance was to last for the rest of the earth. Once the Kinslaying occured and the Valar offered the Noldor one last chance to repent before they left Aman, it was inievitable as the prophecy of the North shows, that no help would come till the Noldor had spent themselves. If they were determined to make war on Morgoth without the aid or blessing of those who dhould have and did no better, then the valar did the least they could do which was warn them of the cost of their folly, and offer them one last way to avoid a hopeless war. 1/10th of the Noldor showed they understood the bigger picture. As did galadriel soon after [quite probably due to Melian's influence. She had already told Thingol it was hopeless, and he was resolved ot stay minimally involved].
So of the various royalty involved, quite a fwe chose not to entangle themselves in the Hopeless war, [though Thingol later became ensnared due to his cruel jest with Beren].