Why was Vilya supposed to be the greatest elf ring?

[Iarhen]

Tolkien says so when hes describing them on the pages of LOTR.

But we dont see Vilya in action (except, maybe, when Elrond raised the waters on the Ford against the Nazgul).

But in terms of action, even though Elven rings were not built for war, they were built for protecting the kingdoms of their beaerers (to preserve good from evil).

So, in that matter, Nenya was a lot more effective. Why? Because it stopped 3 assails from Dol Guldur, held the Moria orcs at bay and kept the Balrog out of Lothlorien (I think so).

Any info?

[burrahobbit]

What kept a Balrog out of Lorien is that it had been stabbed to death. Used more is not the same as more powerfull, Elrond had an extra ton of mountains between him and the bad guys. I don't know why Tolkien would have made that one the most powerful, though.

[Iarhen]

I know that the Balrog was finally killed by Gandalf.

But before that, after Durin and his dwarves awoke it... what kept the Balrog off Lorien after Galadriel went there?

I think it was Galadriel...

Was she able to cloud the Balrog's mind with her powers and the help of Nenya?

[Mattius]

That is a possibility, but I don't think it is cleared over whether or not Galadrial knew that a Balrog resided in Moria. The Balrog probably stayed as Morgoth was gone and no one was around to control him (or her). Fear of the Valar drove it away from the War of Wrath and I doubt that kind of fear would go away quickly.

[ March 10, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]

[lord of dor-lomin]

Why would the Balrog want to go to Lothlorien? To see the pretty trees?
I think the Balrog was fine hanging out in Moria, and wasn't really motivated to do anything else.

Used more is not the same as more powerfull

I agree with that. I don't think we can say that Nenya was better.

[Iarhen]

I think that Galadriel knew that a Balrog lived in Moria. Remember that when the FOTR meet Celeborn and her, and after Aragorn tells them about the fall of Gandalf, Celeborn reffers to the Balrog as Durin's Bane and how it was a great evil against Lorien.

And, I can think of several reasons why a Balrog would want to go to Lorien. First of all, to kill elves. Do you need more reasons? To expand it's kingdom, possibly.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Boy, this topic sure diverged quickly. Nothing is more treacherous than a tangential Balrog debate.

But the point there about Nenya is not without merit. Nevertheless, whatever the general and relative powers of The Three, Nenya may have only indirectly contributed to Lothlorien's defense against Moria and Dol Guldor. Galadriel and Celeborn, no doubt, had other powers with which to bolster the valour and strength of the Galathrim.

Returning to the topic: Vilya being the greatest of The Three, remember first that it was given originally to Gil-Galad, last of the Eldar Kings in Middle-Earth.

Also, it is the Ring of the Sky, and in a sense, The Three -- Vilya, Nenya and Narya --represent the same gradation of power as personified by Manwe (Lord of the Airs), Ulmo (Lord of Waters) and Aule (Lord of ..., well, he works a lot with Fire).

With Elrond, one never gets a strong impression of his actively using it, the way that Galadriel evidently does by way of Lothlorien's timeless/unstained nature, the majesty of Caras Galadhon, and of course, The Mirror, as well as some contribution to her reported ability to withstand any adversary less than Sauron himself.

The same might have been true of Imladris and Elrond; though, by all accounts it was not seriously attacked during the War of the Rings, at least not militarily, although that might have been different but for what transpired during Bilbo's adventure.

Nevertheless, in terms of Rivendell's defense and perservation as the last realm of High Elves in Middle-Earth (assuming Lindon is mostly Grey/Green-Elves), one has not only the flash flood that defeated the Nazgul (which may have arisen through other powers of Elrond apart from Vilya), but we also can appreciate the long period during which Imladris kept the forces of Angmar at bay, and then helped see to their defeat. Nothwithstanding Glorfindel and other greats residing in Rivendell, Elrond and possibly Vilya played a role.

The contrast between Galadriel/Nenya and Elrond/Vilya is in some ways a reflection of their characters. Within her domain Galadriel is more open and apparent, at least with Frodo. Rivendell is not so cut-off from the rest of the world, and Frodo does not see Vilya, perhaps because Elrond must be generally more guarded with it, given that many folks come and go through the Last Homely House. (Frodo also doesn't see Narya with Gandalf, though that might be attributed to personal familiarity); also, it was likely Elrond who had to briefly handle the Ring in placing it on the chain about Frodo's neck. Nonetheless, Elrond is one of the most ubiquitous persons in the Books, but also one on the most enigmatic.

I think if one looks closely one can see the power of Vilya at work through Elrond, apart from the fact that Imladris remains completely unassailable by Angmar, the Black Riders and other threats during the Third Age, in a way that makes its being the greatest of The Three credible.

First, what are Vilya's powers. I'd sum them up as: Healing, Understanding, Peace and Wisdom.

Some examples of where these non-military powers were at work, I would cite:

• 1. Succour and sustainment of the Line of Isildur in the North, not least, Aragorn's upbringing and protection of the heirlooms of Arnor.
• 2. The guideance that he gives to Thorin & Co. in deciphering the map in way that escapes both Thorin and Gandalf.
• 3. His foresight in defining the terms of Arwen and Aragorn's betrothel.
• 4. The timely assembly of important players in Rivendell; might Boromir's dream-riddle have been not entirely a surprise for Elrond.
• 5. Frodo's rescue from the trans-lethal effect of a Morgul weapon.
• 6. The healing, restfulness, strengthening, and enlightenment visited on people staying in Imladris, not least Bilbo after he had stopped bearing The Ring.
• 7. His uncanny advice to Aragorn in recalling Malbeth the Seer, and his point to Frodo about friends unlooked-for; remember Faramir experienced the dream-riddle more than Boromir, and it was an odd fate that informed him of his brother's demise by protecting his brother's funeral boat in a fair form that showed a dignified end.
• 8. An almost Manwe-like view and wisdom about events in the world, perhaps not without some connection to the Eagles that save Bilbo, Gandalf and last Frodo/Sam, but also possibly some part as an intermediary assisting the forces by which Frodo was meant to have The Ring.

[Annunfuiniel]

Man-of-the-Wold, great post! I agree with you especially in the next part:

Also, it is the Ring of the Sky, and in a sense, The Three -- Vilya, Nenya and Narya --represent the same gradation of power as personified by Manwe (Lord of the Airs), Ulmo (Lord of Waters) and Aule (Lord of ..., well, he works a lot with Fire).

But I would add one point of view. This may be far fetched but wasn't fire Melkor's main element? At least he used it quite a lot and so does Sauron. So, is there a better way to fight (evil) Fire than with (good) Fire? Gandalf having Narya would then make even more sense in the big picture, he was after all in closest or most direct contact with the fiery nature of Sauron and his kind (balrog).

So, if you must try and find the greatest or whatsoever among the Three then it might be argued that Vilya was the most powerful (like Manwë among the Valar) but not in terms of attack rating or such but in other areas. Manwë wasn't described as the greatest in strength (that was Tulkas), his powers lay elsewhere. Ulmo(>Nenya) was most powerful in his own element and almost equal to Manwë (and more active). And Melkor, well, he was Manwë's brother in Iluvatar's mind, his equal, in some instances described as the greatest among Valar, but his turning to the evil side marked his fall.

All this turned to sound all but sensible now that it's put in words. Bid your judgement and I shall yield to it.

[Legolas]

The real answer: We're not told enough about the rings' capabilities to determine why Vilya was greater. It just was.


Also, why would the balrog want to invade Lorien? If he wanted to but could not because of Galadriel's ring, would he not have just invaded another land? Clearly that was not the case. The balrog had established residence and only attacked the dwarves and the Fellowship because they were invading his home.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Imladrien]

Other than the fact that The Ring of Air might be seen as an artifact of Manwe, Lord of Airs, Greatest of the Valar, my theory is that Elrond seems to be the weakest in personal power compared to Galadriel and Gandalf, so he was given the greatest ring in order to be on par with them.
By the way, the Rings were not named before the galley proofs. HoMe Vol 9, pg 111. So, all of this was kind of an afterthought on Tolkien's part.
--Imladrien

[Voralphion]

that Elrond seems to be the weakest in personal power compared to Galadriel and Gandalf, so he was given the greatest ring in order to be on par with them.

Elrond wasn't given Vilya because he was the weakest, he was given Vilya because hje happened to be with Gil Galad when he died and passed on the ring. Also, Elrond although is never referred to as, is the only surviving descendant of Fingolfin and would therefore be the king of the Noldor in middle earth if they took someone as a king.

[Imladrien]

Voralphion wrote:

Elrond wasn't given Vilya because he was the weakest, he was given Vilya because hje happened to be with Gil Galad when he died and passed on the ring. Also, Elrond although is never referred to as, is the only surviving descendant of Fingolfin and would therefore be the king of the Noldor in middle earth if they took someone as a king.

Yes, Voralphion, it does seem like that until you read HoMe. Then you realize that Tolkien didn't even give the Rings to their bearers (except for Galadriel) until the very last minute. Then, sometime later, he created the "backstories" for Elrond and Gandalf to get their Rings. So at the time Tolkien wrote LotR, I think he gave Vilya to Elrond and called it the greatest because he was the one with the least personal power. Gandalf fights a Balrog, Galadriel resists the Ring. Elrond.....
It's only an opinion.
--Imladrien

[Legolas]

Elrond could've advised Frodo to keep the Ring in Rivendell for "safe keeping" with intentions of taking it later.

He didn't, though.

[Iarwain]

One point everyone is overlooking. Elrond, choosing to be firstborn was gifted by becoming one of the wisest of the Eldar. Who ever said that Elrond was weak? Look at his history. He was born on the mouth of Sirion, when he was very young his parents both left him forever and he was taken captive (after witnessing the deaths of all the people he had known in his short life) by two blood thirsty, fiery sons of Feanor, one of whom luckily likes him and Elros. He was then let free, and served under Gil-Galad, and was the Standard Bearer (no easy or safe duty) during the last alliance. He stood by and witnessed the final moments of Gil-Galad, Elendil, and Sauron, and urged Isildur to destroy the ring. Meanwhile, he established one of the last safe havens for the remaining Noldor, and raised Isildur's heir. He protected Imladris from all attacks and served as host to the greatest of Middle-Earth (clearly being one himself) and one of the cheif members of the White Council. How does that make him a weakling? I've always considered Elrond to be more prestigious (if not more powerful) than Galadriel.

Also, Lothlorien, being the new Doriath, seemed to have the same sort of shield protecting it. If anyone wanted in and Galadriel didn't I'm quite sure they wouldn't be able to break through her girdle.

Iarwain

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Iarhen]

I agree with you, Iarwain, that Elrond was not supposed to have the Vilya ring just because he was "the weakest". We dont know that.

But Im sure that he was not more powerful than Galadriel. Tolkien says so several times. Galadriel was the mightiest and greatest of the Eldar on M.E. Maybe Elrond had a better name outside the boundaries of his realm (since men, dwarf, orc and every other thing on M.E. except Fangorn, was afraid of Galadriel). Everyone was afraid of Galadriel, but that was a misconception that Aragorn clearly states on FOTR.

Elrond having a better name and being more prestigious? Probably. But not because of a good reason, but because of ignorance.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

All very interesting. I think Annun takes us down the right path, in that power and greatness in this context is not necessarily measured by strength and so forth, but rather by a combination of gifts, graces and knowledge, just as Manwe could not have equaled Tulkas, Orome or even originally Melkor in battle, but his pre-eminence is beyond question.

Given her age, majesty and potentcy, Galadriel is no doubt more powerful in many regards, compared to her son-in-law, as she is also feared and indeed perilous. And, for her, the test is real.

Elrond is of a different nature, as he is well known and deeply respected from Belfalas to the Iron Hills. Note my examples of the subtle but significant workings of his influence, however related they may have been to Vilya. As others note, his knowledge and lineage surpasses that of Galadriel, and though he would not have wanted it to stay, he is beyond being tempted by The Ring.

As for the Morian Balrog. It's containment, however voluntary was probably enhanced by the presence Lothlorien to the east of the main issuance from Moria, regardless of Galadriel or Nenya specifically.

Nevertheless, with the War of the Ring it is highly conceivably that it would have issued forth to assist in assault on Lorien. It might have done this at Sauron's bidding, but NOT under Sauron's control. More of an independent ally, much like Smaug would have been.

Admittedly the Elven rings/Valar parallel breaks down with Narya, the Ring of Fire, which besides some direct pyrotechnic enhancement, refers to its ability to help the wearer to inspire, encourage, strengthen and embolden others. Clearly, Gandalf as Cirdan foresaw put such power to tremendous use. Melkor was most directly associated with Fire, and despite his fall was co-equal to Manwe, but Fire is not any more necessarily evil than cold. Indeed the force of life in the world arises from the Secret Fire of Iluvatar, which Gandalf refers to in his encounter with the Balrog.

[Tar Elenion]

Letter 257:

From The Hobbit are also derived the matter of the Dwarves, Durin their prime ancestor, and Moria; and Elrond. The passage in Ch. iii relating him to the Half-elven of the mythology was a fortunate accident, due to the difficulty of constantly inventing good names for new characters. I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the great-grandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.

JRRT here identifies Elrond as both a 'great power' and a 'Ringholder', but interestingly he is a 'great power, aside from the fact that he has a ring. Notice that divine heritage, Elrond is descended from a 'god'.

Letter 246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

Another interesting note here is that Elrond would be especially capable of weilding the One and supplanting Sauron. Why Elrond 'especially'. Perhaps his Maiarin heritage has something to do with it.

Unfinished Tales:

At this time the first Council was held, 10 and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador...

Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond long before the Last Alliance. The time spoken of here is just after the War of Elves and Sauron (ca. SA 1700).

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Tar Elenion answers unto all ye worshippers of the Lady of the Wood, and remind you that one underestimates the power dwelling in Imladris at your peril, be he a Ringbearer or no.

One may surmise also that the bestowing of Vilya was from the beginning intended to assist in the creation and defense of a refuge in Eastern Eriador, larger realm of the last Elvenking, although neither its first nor second bearer could openly wield it while the hand of the Sauron wore The One.

The greatness of Earendil's one living son is beyond question, even if in the Third Age it and the greatest of The Three are employed solely through subtle influences and obstensibly peaceful actions. He may have understood the Music better than most, and have unwittingly sent Thorin & Co. up that particular High Pass, with Glamdring and Orcrist in hand, and one not easily corrupted soul. It is though non-military means that the weaknesses of Sauron are laid bare.

Think not! ... that if The Enemy at that time feared and hated any inhabitant of Middle-Earth more than Aragorn, it would be the other living decendent of his most implacable foes.