Does Frodo live??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mankáno · 05-20-2002, 05:19 PM

This is a transcript from volume 10 of HoME, Morgoth's ring about the nature of elves and men.

[The] 'Fate of Men' was also later discussed by the Eldar, when
they had met Men and knew them. But they had little evidence,
and therefore did not know or assert, but 'supposed' or
'guessed'. One such supposition was that Elves and Men will
become one people. Another is that some Men, if they desire it,
will be permitted to join the Elves in New Arda, or to visit them
there -though it will not be the home of Men. The most widely
held supposition is that the fate of Men is wholly different, and
that they will not be concerned with Arda at all. f
At the end of this note my father wrote subsequently: 'But see full
treatment of this later in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.' This work
constitutes Part Four in this book.
(iii)
Fate of 'Immortal' Elves: ? to inhabit New Arda (or Arda
Healed). Probably not, in a physical sense. Since what is meant
by 'The Tale of Arda' seems to be this. The World and its Time
appears to begin and end simply because it is bounded, neither
infinite nor eternal. Its finite 'story' when complete will be, like a
work of art, beautiful and good (as a whole), and from outside,
sc. not in Time or its Time, it can be contemplated with wonder
and delight -especially by those who have taken part in its
'Tale'. Only in that sense will Elves (or Men) inhabit Arda
Complete. But New Arda or Arda Unmarred (Healed) would
imply a continuance, beyond the End (or Completion). Of that
nothing can be surmised. Unless it be this. Since the Elves (and
Men) were made for Arda, the satisfaction of their nature will
require Arda (without the malice of the Marrer): therefore
before the Ending the Marring will be wholly undone or healed
(or absorbed into good, beauty, and joy). In that region of Time
and Place the Elves will dwell as their home, but not be confined
to it. But no blessed spirits from what is still to us the future can
intrude into our own periods of Time. For to contemplate the
Tale of Arda the Blessed must (in spirit or whole being) leave the
Time of Arda. But others use another analogy, saying that there
will indeed be a New Arda, rebuilt from the beginning without
Malice, and that the Elves will take part in this from the
beginning. It will be in Ea, say.. they -for they hold that all
Creation of any sort must be in Ea, proceeding from Eru in the
same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not
believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as
an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either
altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not,
or else If there are any intersections (however rare) they are only
provinces of one Ea.
At the head of the page on which this note stands my father wrote:
'But see Athrabeth': see (ii) above.

05-20-2002, 05:19 PM	#1
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	This is a transcript from volume 10 of HoME, Morgoth's ring about the nature of elves and men. [The] 'Fate of Men' was also later discussed by the Eldar, when they had met Men and knew them. But they had little evidence, and therefore did not know or assert, but 'supposed' or 'guessed'. One such supposition was that Elves and Men will become one people. Another is that some Men, if they desire it, will be permitted to join the Elves in New Arda, or to visit them there -though it will not be the home of Men. The most widely held supposition is that the fate of Men is wholly different, and that they will not be concerned with Arda at all. f At the end of this note my father wrote subsequently: 'But see full treatment of this later in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.' This work constitutes Part Four in this book. (iii) Fate of 'Immortal' Elves: ? to inhabit New Arda (or Arda Healed). Probably not, in a physical sense. Since what is meant by 'The Tale of Arda' seems to be this. The World and its Time appears to begin and end simply because it is bounded, neither infinite nor eternal. Its finite 'story' when complete will be, like a work of art, beautiful and good (as a whole), and from outside, sc. not in Time or its Time, it can be contemplated with wonder and delight -especially by those who have taken part in its 'Tale'. Only in that sense will Elves (or Men) inhabit Arda Complete. But New Arda or Arda Unmarred (Healed) would imply a continuance, beyond the End (or Completion). Of that nothing can be surmised. Unless it be this. Since the Elves (and Men) were made for Arda, the satisfaction of their nature will require Arda (without the malice of the Marrer): therefore before the Ending the Marring will be wholly undone or healed (or absorbed into good, beauty, and joy). In that region of Time and Place the Elves will dwell as their home, but not be confined to it. But no blessed spirits from what is still to us the future can intrude into our own periods of Time. For to contemplate the Tale of Arda the Blessed must (in spirit or whole being) leave the Time of Arda. But others use another analogy, saying that there will indeed be a New Arda, rebuilt from the beginning without Malice, and that the Elves will take part in this from the beginning. It will be in Ea, say.. they -for they hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Ea, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else If there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Ea. At the head of the page on which this note stands my father wrote: 'But see Athrabeth': see (ii) above.