The role of Fate in Middle Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

galpsi · 02-27-2001, 06:26 PM

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Re: ....

If I may approach this at a very prosaic level, I have always thought that JRRT hits both the free-will note and the fate note very heavily at the end of the Council of Elrond:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise form their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great. Who of all the Wise could have forseen it? Or if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?<hr></blockquote>
If this informs the discussion at all (and I'm hardly sure that it does) it would be useful to render that word Wise back into Elvish. A quick check at Ardalambion suggests that all of the Elvish roots for Wise lead us straight back to the Noldor, the Sindar and the Istari. (The roots being ngol, thin and is, respectively. That is, I take Elrond to be saying that the Shire-folk, mortals, operate outside the certain knowledge of the Wise. This might, indeed, back up the distinction between the fated experience of the firstborn and the free experience of the followers suggested (I think first in thread) by Mithadan.
That said, what of appointed? It does not appear in the Ardlambion glossaries. An OED search demonstrates that in the King James Edition it does have the kind of significance that would correspond with divine preordination: Num. ix. 2
Keepe the Passe~ouer at his appointed season.
(Would the Catholic Prof. use CoE language? How not?)
So if that ain’t equivocal evidence, I don’t know what would be. See if it feeds your conversation (which is already over my head).
g.

</p>

02-27-2001, 06:26 PM	#26
galpsi The Unquiet Dead Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 971	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead Posts: 1116</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: .... If I may approach this at a very prosaic level, I have always thought that JRRT hits both the free-will note and the fate note very heavily at the end of the Council of Elrond: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and if you do not find a way, no one will. This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise form their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the great. Who of all the Wise could have forseen it? Or if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?<hr></blockquote> If this informs the discussion at all (and I'm hardly sure that it does) it would be useful to render that word Wise* back into Elvish. A quick check at Ardalambion suggests that all of the Elvish roots for Wise lead us straight back to the Noldor, the Sindar and the Istari. (The roots being ngol, thin and is, respectively. That is, I take Elrond to be saying that the Shire-folk, mortals, operate outside the certain knowledge of the Wise. This might, indeed, back up the distinction between the fated experience of the firstborn and the free experience of the followers suggested (I think first in thread) by Mithadan. That said, what of appointed? It does not appear in the Ardlambion glossaries. An OED search demonstrates that in the King James Edition it does have the kind of significance that would correspond with divine preordination: Num. ix. 2 Keepe the Passe~ouer at his appointed season. (Would the Catholic Prof. use CoE language? How not?) So if that ain’t equivocal evidence, I don’t know what would be. See if it feeds your conversation (which is already over my head). g. </p>