Can elves die by being poisined??? - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Finwe · 12-14-2003, 05:02 PM

Since biological warfare in Middle-earth probably involved catapulting corpses into castles, with the desire to spread infection, it wouldn't work on Elves because they aren't vulnerable to infection or disease.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 03:16 PM

OK, yes, i agree with that. However, how would poison work if disease does not work? they affect the body in similar ways.

My theory is that diseas can kill them, but they are resistant to the point of invincibility. Poison is different.

Opinions, everyone?

Alatariel · 12-15-2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

My theory is that diseas can kill them, but they are resistant to the point of invincibility

Disease cannot kill them. As Guinevere said before:

Quote:

"No sickness nor pestilence brought death to them"

Not all poisions affect the body the same way that diseases do. Besides, wouldn't it be more disease like symptoms, not an actual disease itself? Even though they are similar, they are not one and the same - most poisons work either through the blood stream or digestive system; as far as I understand it, many diseases work by moving through tissues and cells, like cancer.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:41 PM December 15, 2003: Message edited by: Alatariel ]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Not all poisions affect the body the same way that diseases do.

So, are you saying that there are poisons that do not effect elvs, because they work like diseases? This is what you seem to be saying.

Telchar · 12-15-2003, 06:12 PM

Beside the obvious Eöl/Aredhel case here are some other references that might help you guys...

Quote:

In 2509 Celebrían wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound. She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.

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They sought long for her in vain, fearing that she had been ensnared, or had drunk from the poisoned streams of that land; but the fell creatures of Ungoliant that dwelt in the ravines were aroused and pursued them, and they hardly escaped with their lives.

doug*platypus · 12-15-2003, 06:13 PM

I think you have to use garlic or something don't you? Or EDTA like in Blade II?

Elves are not vampires!! JRR Tolkien didn't create them to be comic book characters with highly defined, very specific weaknesses. They're not in a Saturday morning cartoon!

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Seems to me that it's far easier to list those things that kill Men, but do not kill Elves. I can only think of two: ageing and disease.

Surely the above quote from Saucepan Man should be enough to stop the madness? Biological warfare?! OMG... this is The Lord of the Rings we're talking about, not the latest X-Box game (although unfortunately these days they are one and the same thing).

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 07:10 PM

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Biological warfare?! OMG... this is The Lord of the Rings we're talking about, not the latest X-Box game

What is so farfetched about biological warfare? All biological warfare is is introducing a disease into a sustem that cannot handle it. DEAD COWS AND A CATAPULT!!! What is wrong with this situaltion? Nothing.

Quote:

"No sickness nor pestilence brought death to them"

I do not mean to be picky, but just because it DID not bring death did not mean it CAN not bring death. This is the literal meaning of the quote.

Telchar · 12-15-2003, 07:18 PM

GREAT TOPIC!!! Let's discuss how deadly it would be to elves - or men for that matter -to Catapult Dead Posinous Cows on on them (preferable while they are sleeping) [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-15-2003, 07:24 PM

Um... is that sarcasm? I cant tell. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Anyway, I think, as you may have noticed, that biological warfare would work just as well against elves as it would against humans.

Finwe · 12-15-2003, 08:39 PM

Tuor, biological warfare is only effective if the population being attacked is vulnerable to the disease being introduced. In the case of the Elves, since they weren't susceptible to disease, the worst that would happen was that the place would smell of rotting corpses. No Elves would die of disease.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-16-2003, 11:40 AM

OK, that kind of makes sense. But, would 'chemical warfare' work, such as using smoke to make elves get out of a building?

Finwe · 12-16-2003, 06:37 PM

Something like that could probably work, since Elves need to breathe just like Humans. In The Silmarillion, the death of Ecthelion, Captain of Gondolin, is accomplished by drowning, proving that Elves do indeed need to breathe. (For those of you who are morbidly interested in all the sordid details, during the Fall of Gondolin, he fought with Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, and after killing him, fell into the extremely deep fountain that "incidentally" was right next to him, and the weight of his armor made him sink to the bottom of the fountain.)

12-14-2003, 05:02 PM	#41
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Since biological warfare in Middle-earth probably involved catapulting corpses into castles, with the desire to spread infection, it wouldn't work on Elves because they aren't vulnerable to infection or disease. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-15-2003, 03:16 PM	#42
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	OK, yes, i agree with that. However, how would poison work if disease does not work? they affect the body in similar ways. My theory is that diseas can kill them, but they are resistant to the point of invincibility. Poison is different. Opinions, everyone? __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-15-2003, 07:18 PM	#48
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	GREAT TOPIC!!! Let's discuss how deadly it would be to elves - or men for that matter -to Catapult Dead Posinous Cows on on them (preferable while they are sleeping) [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

12-15-2003, 07:24 PM	#49
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Um... is that sarcasm? I cant tell. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Anyway, I think, as you may have noticed, that biological warfare would work just as well against elves as it would against humans. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-15-2003, 08:39 PM	#50
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Tuor, biological warfare is only effective if the population being attacked is vulnerable to the disease being introduced. In the case of the Elves, since they weren't susceptible to disease, the worst that would happen was that the place would smell of rotting corpses. No Elves would die of disease. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-16-2003, 11:40 AM	#51
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	OK, that kind of makes sense. But, would 'chemical warfare' work, such as using smoke to make elves get out of a building? __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-16-2003, 06:37 PM	#52
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Something like that could probably work, since Elves need to breathe just like Humans. In The Silmarillion, the death of Ecthelion, Captain of Gondolin, is accomplished by drowning, proving that Elves do indeed need to breathe. (For those of you who are morbidly interested in all the sordid details, during the Fall of Gondolin, he fought with Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, and after killing him, fell into the extremely deep fountain that "incidentally" was right next to him, and the weight of his armor made him sink to the bottom of the fountain.) __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.