Which lands? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 09-20-2002, 07:59 PM

In the chapter "Many Partings", Galadriel says to Treebeard: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring."

I had always assumed that this referred to Beleriand, but it recently occurred to me that it could equally well refer to Numenor. I seem to recall some other mention of the possibility of sunken lands rising again, but I cannot recall where. Do you think this pseudo-prophecy refers to Beleriand or to Numenor?

Morgoth Bauglir · 09-20-2002, 08:08 PM

beleriand....im guessing after the dagor daggorach or whatever.

Arwen Imladris · 09-20-2002, 08:14 PM

Ya, I think that Beleriand is right. Numenor rising again is just wrong. Also I don't think that Treebeard was ever in Numenor. I think that she was just trying to show how long it would take for them to meet again.

***Sharkû*** · 09-20-2002, 10:47 PM

"Númenor itself on the edge of the rift topples and vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss. Thereafter there is no visible dwelling of the divine or immortal on earth. " -- Letter 131.

Whether "for ever" extends until the final end of Morgoth and the ensuing re-making of the [whole] world is not clear here.

"Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed; the armada was swallowed up; and the Blessed Realm removed for ever from the circles of the physical world. " -- Letter 156.

At any rate, in the second quote, the "for ever" no longer seems to include Númenor; however, the idea at the time of LotR that in the re-making of the World after the Dagor Dagorath that the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled and the light of the "reborn" Two Trees shall pour into the world can suggest that the remade world (see QS in HoME V) would be remade to its flat state, with Aman on the same level as Middle-Earth. This could then contradict the statement above if the "for ever" extends until after the Dagor Dagorath.

Apart from that, the re-making of the World does neither specifically include nor exclude Númenor as far as I can recall, wherefore it would be that both Númenor and Beleriand were to be restored. Also, it would seem unlikely that some lands would be restored sooner than others, which is why I take Galadriel's expression to mean simply 'when the world has been re-made'.

To what extend this was known to Galadriel we cannot judge; at any rate, one would not think her knowledge would be so far less than Pengoloð's as not to know of this concept of the world's end and re-making.

Why Beleriand would no longer be a part of Middle-Earth, or why that continent [or the whole world?] would no longer bear that name after the re-making probably cannot be said.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

09-20-2002, 07:59 PM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Which lands? In the chapter "Many Partings", Galadriel says to Treebeard: "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring." I had always assumed that this referred to Beleriand, but it recently occurred to me that it could equally well refer to Numenor. I seem to recall some other mention of the possibility of sunken lands rising again, but I cannot recall where. Do you think this pseudo-prophecy refers to Beleriand or to Numenor?

09-20-2002, 08:14 PM	#3
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Ya, I think that Beleriand is right. Numenor rising again is just wrong. Also I don't think that Treebeard was ever in Numenor. I think that she was just trying to show how long it would take for them to meet again. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

09-20-2002, 08:08 PM	#2
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	beleriand....im guessing after the dagor daggorach or whatever.

09-20-2002, 10:47 PM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	"Númenor itself on the edge of the rift topples and vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss. Thereafter there is no visible dwelling of the divine or immortal on earth. " -- Letter 131. Whether "for ever" extends until the final end of Morgoth and the ensuing re-making of the [whole] world is not clear here. "Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed; the armada was swallowed up; and the Blessed Realm removed for ever from the circles of the physical world. " -- Letter 156. At any rate, in the second quote, the "for ever" no longer seems to include Númenor; however, the idea at the time of LotR that in the re-making of the World after the Dagor Dagorath that the mountains of Valinor shall be levelled and the light of the "reborn" Two Trees shall pour into the world can suggest that the remade world (see QS in HoME V) would be remade to its flat state, with Aman on the same level as Middle-Earth. This could then contradict the statement above if the "for ever" extends until after the Dagor Dagorath. Apart from that, the re-making of the World does neither specifically include nor exclude Númenor as far as I can recall, wherefore it would be that both Númenor and Beleriand were to be restored. Also, it would seem unlikely that some lands would be restored sooner than others, which is why I take Galadriel's expression to mean simply 'when the world has been re-made'. To what extend this was known to Galadriel we cannot judge; at any rate, one would not think her knowledge would be so far less than Pengoloð's as not to know of this concept of the world's end and re-making. Why Beleriand would no longer be a part of Middle-Earth, or why that continent [or the whole world?] would no longer bear that name after the re-making probably cannot be said. [ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]