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11-24-2003, 09:23 PM | #1 |
Wight
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How did Galadriel knew that Gandalf was back?
After the fight with the Balrog, Gandalf passed away and returned in a short period of time.
Out of nowhere, Gwaihir picks him up from the Zirak-Zigil and takes him to Caras Galadhon... And Gwaihir tells Gandalf that Galadriel was the one who sent him to pick him up. My question is... How did she knew that Gandalf was back? Need help from the Wise here cuz this question has been torturing me for the past week...
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"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring. |
11-24-2003, 09:31 PM | #2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I've thought of that too, but the conclusion I've come to is: The Mirror of Galadriel.
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11-24-2003, 09:37 PM | #3 | ||
A Northern Soul
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The Mirror is a possibility, as well as this:
Quote:
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Power of mind (or fëa) to detect another (and in the event of both giving consent, communication between the two entities). This was a power among the Eldar and Ainur (as noted in the first quote). Men are excluded because of the strength of the hröa (or body) over which they have little control. [ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
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11-24-2003, 10:00 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Let's not forget that Gandalf bore Narya, and Galadriel bore Nenya. But this could relate to the thought relations Legolas mentions.
Whether or not the rings had anything to do with it, when the Fellowship first meets with Galadriel, she asks where he was because she hadn't been able to discern his mind, or something like that.
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11-24-2003, 11:53 PM | #5 |
Wight
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Yeah, I do remember when Galadriel said taht he could not perceive his thoughts from a far... But I dont remember if that is from the movie or from the book...
I have another question. Did the elven rings give their bearers the capacity to communicate immediately with the other ring bearers?
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"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring. |
11-25-2003, 12:54 AM | #6 |
A Northern Soul
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No, the Rings are not related to that - they would be (are) able to communicate "telepathically," as one might say in a modern day comic book, anyway. See the above post. It's actually presence of soul or mind that can be felt and used as a means to communicate thought without being physically present or even close.
It has nothing to do with the rings.
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11-25-2003, 08:55 AM | #7 |
Animated Skeleton
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I would like to add that there was a limit to this communication as well as the ability to hide things from each other. For example the ability for Sauruman to hide his evil side from all the white council. I agree with you legolas that there was some ability however it was limited.
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11-25-2003, 09:44 AM | #8 |
Deathless Sun
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I think Galadriel probably sensed the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, and ultimately knew that Gandalf survived. None of the Wise could ignore a conflict such as that, since two Maiar haven't fought like that since the First Age (most likely). If not that, then Galadriel could probably "mind-speak" with Gandalf, becuase at the end of Return of the King, when everyone was leaving Minas Tirith, they constantly talk to each other mind-to-mind. If they could do it then, it makes sense that they would be able to do it about a month/a few weeks before.
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11-25-2003, 10:37 AM | #9 |
Haunting Spirit
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playing on the mirror, Eru bought Gandalf back, perhaps he could also have the power to influence the mirror into showing Galadriel that Gandalf was alive atop the mountain? just a thought, but i do feel that the "mind-speaking" is most likely.
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11-25-2003, 04:38 PM | #10 |
Wight
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well it wasn't realy Eru who brought Gandalf back, it was either Manwe or another one of the Valar, because ha had not finished his mission that ha was sent to do, right?
but, I think it was "mind speech" from one of the Valar, Miar, or elves who were living in Valinor. also, I think that if Saruman didn't want anyone to find out he was betraying them then they wouldn't. "mind speech" only works if the 2 people are agreeing to comunicate with each other.
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11-25-2003, 05:01 PM | #11 |
Animated Skeleton
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It was Eru that sent Gandalf back, not any of the Valar...
I think this is either a mistake on the part of Tolkien, or a mistery left for the reader, because really no information is given to make any of our ideas more than guesses... My guess is that the 3 Ring Bearers can sense each others presence, and maybe im wrong, but Elrond AND Galadriel both knew of Narya passing to Gandalf, so maybe thats how Galadriel knew Gandalf was awake....(just a guess) -willkill
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11-25-2003, 09:18 PM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
If, as you say, they are a means to communicate thought, then Galadriel could easily have sensed Gandalf...especially if he had returned as Gandalf the White! He would be shining a little brighter, so to speak, in his thoughts.
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11-25-2003, 10:01 PM | #13 | ||
A Northern Soul
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There's not any authoritative statement required other than the fact that Galadriel, being of the Eldar, and Gandalf, an Ainu-incarnate can communicate through thought without any ring. Had they encountered each other (and they may have) in Valinor, they could've done the same thing.
They had the ability to do it without a Ring on, whether or not the Rings had anything to do with it, but the Rings didn't because never is there any mention of the Rings as a means of communication. Nowhere do they exhibit this power, nor is it hinted at. You're looking too far into the power and importance of the Rings. An analogy for you... Superman can fly. Everytime we see Superman flying, he has his cape on. Can he fly without his cape? Of course. Is it stated that he can fly without his cape, and that all beings of his kind can fly, caped or uncaped? Yes. Then why would someone wonder if the cape had anything to do with it? It's logically not related, and even if it gives normal humans the ability to fly, it's pointless to Superman because he can fly anyway. Quote:
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11-26-2003, 01:41 PM | #14 |
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I don't believe it was Eru who sent Gandalf back, for two reasons. One, Manwe or another Vala would be perfectly capable of doing so, and as they were the ones who sent Gandalf over in the first place, it seems most likely they’d be the ones to send him back. Two, that would involve Eru directly interferring, for lack of a better word, in Arda. It's pretty debated as to whether he would do this or not, but the general idea is that he wouldn't, at least for something like this. (see the Athrabeth for more details there)
Isn't it possible that Galadriel realized that Gandalf might be back, and sent an Eagle to keep an eye out for him? I believe Galadriel does say that she "cannot see [Gandalf] from afar… a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and his mind are hidden from [her]." So I'm pretty sure she can't just use the Mirror to find him, nor the Ring. An Eagle would be the best way to look for him. |
11-26-2003, 01:49 PM | #15 |
Wight
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Gotta think Legolas has something there, cause... I just finished FotR a few days ago. I think there was something in there about Galadriel asking where Gandalf was, and when the member(s) of the Fellowship said he fell into shadow and was no more (or some such), she said something like that explains why I (...I don't remember exactly...) can't sense him anywhere.
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For I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying. -Gandalf, The Two Towers |
11-26-2003, 02:06 PM | #16 | |
Animated Skeleton
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in ROTK : Chapter 6 Many Partings:
concerning Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf. Quote:
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11-26-2003, 02:33 PM | #17 | ||
A Northern Soul
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Lovely quote/observation, Eol. It's also important to notice it includes Celeborn also.
Mae states Quote:
Because of the nature of Gandalf's incarnation, he actually did die and left the world. His fea was bound to his hroa, and in the exhaustion and death of the latter, the former left. None of the Valar, even Manwe, could've brought Gandalf back. Obviously elves could be rembodied in the Halls of Mandos, but mortal men and Ainur who died left the world entirely. Tolkien explains Eru's intervention in Letter No. 156: Quote:
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11-28-2003, 11:07 AM | #18 |
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They are all connected by the magic rings. Galdrial, weilder of Ninya, and Gandalf, weilder narya, could "sense" each other.
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11-28-2003, 09:05 PM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Earendil, welcome! May I suggest you read the post before responding...
Eol, I was honestly thinking of that passage, but you beat me to it!
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11-28-2003, 09:49 PM | #20 | |||
Scion of The Faithful
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Anyway...yes, they could communicate without the Rings. Else they could talk about Celeborn without his knowledge, and, as Legolas pointed out, he was part of the conversation. One more thing: Arwen does it. Quote:
But that is not the question. Quote:
<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:41 AM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]
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11-30-2003, 08:44 PM | #21 |
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In reading LOTR I recently noticed a few things that could be connected to this discusion. In "The Ring Goes South" just before the rest of the company is chosen Elrond says "Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsil," said Elrond "I can forsee very little of your road; and how your task is to be acheived I do not know. The shadow has crept now to the feet of the mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of the Greyflood; and under the shadow all is dark to me." Another place is in "The Mirror of Galadriel" after Frodo looks in the mirror when he and Galadriel are Talking she says "I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I percieve the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" and then Frodo sees Nenya etc., and Galadriel goes on to say "He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you not see now wherefor your coming is to us as the footsteps of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and be forgotten." I don't know if that really has any thing to do with "Mind-speach" but I thought it might
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12-03-2003, 08:30 PM | #22 |
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Also, wouldn't Sauroman and Sauron be able to communicate without the Palantiri?
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12-05-2003, 10:50 AM | #23 |
Haunting Spirit
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Thats a very good point Elassar516, and i have to agree. Surely if it was Maia and Maia communication(i sound like im from B.T. or something, [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ) then Sauron and Saruman would be able to communicate, and on top of that Sauron would be able to sense what Gandalf was doing, as he knew what he did usually caused Sauron problems(see the Mouth of Sauron's speech in front of the black gates). I think that it had nothing to do with Maiar spirits in that case(unless that's an innacuracy in Tolkien) but to do with the Rings of Power instead.
[ 11:51 AM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Morgoth the Great ]
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12-05-2003, 04:10 PM | #24 | |
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Saruman could hide his deep thoughts well. Examples, none of the Council preceived his real intentions (finding the ring), for a while he even fooled Sauron of his real intentions, Radagast is fooled by him, as is Gandalf. That is one of his most potent powers, to hide his feelings, plans, intentions. He truely is a wolf in sheep's clothing. So there seems to be some sort of control over how much of your mind someone can preceive. The palantir was only an instrument by which Saruman was ensnared. My thinking is that he used the palantir exclusively to "talk" to Sauron, but kept the rest of his mind hidden. Remember too that Sauron had put much of his power into the ring. So perhaps his ability to see the thoughts of others was lessend. Somewhere (I don't remember where exactly) it says that with the ring Sauron could "see" right into your very soul. Because he does not have the ring, we can assume (I think) that that power is limited as the entirity of it lies within the ring. Hope that was clear. Cheers, Mungo
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12-11-2003, 12:55 AM | #25 | |
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12-11-2003, 08:56 PM | #26 |
Haunting Spirit
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She has that mirror thing. SHe can see past, present and future. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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12-11-2003, 10:04 PM | #27 | ||||||
Animated Skeleton
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However, even when Sarumon believed he was going out on his own to rival Sauron, he was doing his will, to a point, destroying Sauron's enemies. The fact that Sarumon was not a willing slave led Sauron to force Pippin to shout "it;s not for you, I shall send for it!" because Sarumon would have seized thie ring for himself. This treason in Isengard led, however, to Sauron's doubt and striking faster thanhe desired (along with Aragorn's will of adamant wresting control of the Palantir) and allowing the eventual victory of all. The point that Gandalf may have used Osanwe to call to Galadriel is also refuted, however, because of the dialogue between Gandalf and Gwaihir Quote:
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12-12-2003, 02:40 AM | #28 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Wow. Overwhelming.
And I'm defeated...
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12-12-2003, 02:50 AM | #29 |
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That's how Tolkien wanted it to be.
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