What was Ungoliant? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindolirian · 01-12-2002, 01:21 PM

I know that Ungoliant was in the form of a giant spider when she and Melkor attaked the Two Trees of Valinor, but what was she to start? Was she a Maia gone bad? If so why didn't she obey Melkor as he was the starter of all evil and all other evil things were under his reign? Or was she on offspring of the Great Dischord that Melkor sang in the Music of the Ainur?

HerenIstarion · 01-12-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded.

Silmarillion

Lindolirian · 01-12-2002, 02:04 PM

Cool. thanx HerenIstarion. By the way.. doen't your name mean "Order of Wizards"?

HerenIstarion · 01-12-2002, 02:20 PM

you are welcome [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
it does

Cirdan the Shipwright · 01-14-2002, 10:20 AM

I once heard that she was in the beginning a Maiar who served Vaire, though I have never seen or read anything to substantiate this. Still, it makes sense (in sort of a Greek myth - Athena sort of a way).

- Cirdan / Maglor68

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-14-2002, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Still, it makes sense (in sort of a Greek myth - Athena sort of a way).

The version of Athene's story that I know has her bursting fully-grown and armed from Zeus' head to become the goddess of wisdom, war and the arts. What does this have to do with Ungoliant? Am I missing something?

Very BTW, but what a hangover! 'Woke up this morning and I had to get Hephaestus to crack my head open to get rid of the headache. Then this bloody warrior bursts out of my skull and says "Hi, Dad". I'm never drinking Ambrosia again'.

Phil The Balrog · 01-15-2002, 05:02 PM

I think he meant the story of Arachne the weaver who was turned into a spider, by Athena i believe.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-16-2002, 04:39 AM

Quote:

I think he meant the story of Arachne the weaver who was turned into a spider, by Athena i believe.

I see now. The girl who, forced into a weaving competition with Athena by her father's bragging, won, then hanged herself to escape the Olympian's wrath. Athena, took pity on her by turning her into a spider (one advantage of being a god is that you don't have to make sense).
I'm still not entirely clear about the Ungoliant link. Are we considering the possibility that Ungoliant's form was some sort of punishment? I've always assumed that she just liked looking like a repulsively bloated spider, or that it matched her personality so well that it was the easiest form for her to assume.

Cirdan the Shipwright · 01-16-2002, 08:24 AM

Yes - I always thought Arachne was turned into a spider in punishment for defying Athena. Similarly, when Ungoliant went over to Melkor in the beginning, she had the shape of a spider forced upon her by Vaire. Again, there is nothing to substantiate this that I have read (maybe it's in one of the HoME books). Anyway, it's an interesting parallel.

- Cirdan / Maglor68

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-17-2002, 04:07 AM

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I always thought Arachne was turned into a spider in punishment for defying Athena.

That would be too logical. She beats Athena in a weaving competition, which upsets the goddess and Arachne hangs herself in fear. She's turned into a spider to save her life. Greek gods have something of a talent for erratic and bizarre behaviour (see Robert Graves: The Greek Myths).
As for Ungoliant, the punishment idea does make sense. I don't have all of the HoME volumes at home, but I'll have a look and see what I can find...

01-12-2002, 01:21 PM	#1
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	What was Ungoliant? I know that Ungoliant was in the form of a giant spider when she and Melkor attaked the Two Trees of Valinor, but what was she to start? Was she a Maia gone bad? If so why didn't she obey Melkor as he was the starter of all evil and all other evil things were under his reign? Or was she on offspring of the Great Dischord that Melkor sang in the Music of the Ainur? __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

01-12-2002, 02:04 PM	#3
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	Cool. thanx HerenIstarion. By the way.. doen't your name mean "Order of Wizards"? __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

01-12-2002, 02:20 PM	#4
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	you are welcome [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] it does __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

01-15-2002, 05:02 PM	#7
Phil The Balrog Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11	I think he meant the story of Arachne the weaver who was turned into a spider, by Athena i believe. __________________ -Yes, I'm Phil the Balrog.

01-14-2002, 10:20 AM	#5
Cirdan the Shipwright Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 52	I once heard that she was in the beginning a Maiar who served Vaire, though I have never seen or read anything to substantiate this. Still, it makes sense (in sort of a Greek myth - Athena sort of a way). - Cirdan / Maglor68

01-16-2002, 08:24 AM	#9
Cirdan the Shipwright Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 52	Yes - I always thought Arachne was turned into a spider in punishment for defying Athena. Similarly, when Ungoliant went over to Melkor in the beginning, she had the shape of a spider forced upon her by Vaire. Again, there is nothing to substantiate this that I have read (maybe it's in one of the HoME books). Anyway, it's an interesting parallel. - Cirdan / Maglor68