The loss of knowledge - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alkanoonion · 10-03-2002, 05:05 AM

I have a real concern that the site is in danger of losing its older more knowledgeable members. It is the older members who bring maturity and knowledge to Barrow Downs forum and that mix is what helps make the barrow downs such a great site for learning about Tolkien’s world.

What I wanted to ask is it possible of one topic to be available for people to post ideas/suggestions or even grievances so that if a problem is identified it can be resolved. Many older members are leaving but they are not communicating the reasons why they are ghosting out. Instead of leaving why not let the moderator know the reason. Maybe the problems can be resolved with out the loss of all that knowledge.

Suldaledhel · 10-03-2002, 05:31 AM

Quote:

"It is the older members who bring maturity and knowledge to Barrow Downs"

Fortunately for us, red still makes her presence felt every so often. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Witty banter aside, I think it should be pointed out that many of the oldest members (who are still active) are the moderators. I can still see your point however. Although I cannot speak for everyone, I have personally found that there's only so many times one can discuss a particular topic (or topic similar to that particular topic). Many have slowly drifted away due to the sudden influx of new members (which--no offense to anyone--caused the site's intellectual content to deteriorate). New measures have been taken to right this wrong, but it is too late to get those lost members back. I personally feel that although the Downs has established itself as a thriving Tolkien community, it has lost the close-knit, more comfortable ambience it once possessed. As a result, I find myself posting less and less frequently, and slowly fading more and more into the shadows of the Barrow Downs.

***Mithadan*** · 10-03-2002, 07:21 AM

This is one of the reasons we set up the distinct Books and Newcomers boards. Those not interested in what less experienced members might have to say can avoid the latter board.

I have not noticed any unusual migration of older members. Having been here since the boards opened, I have observed that there is a constant ebb and flow of members. Old members leave for a variety of reasons. Loss of interest, busy real lives, etc. New members come in and take their places. Sometimes old members return after an absence of several months. Its just part of the normal life of a message board.

The last thing I want to incite is any conflict between older members and newer members. Both have their virtues and drawbacks. Just because a member joined a year ago rather than a month ago neither gives the older member greater rights on the boards nor any right to "lord it" over new members.

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-03-2002, 07:21 AM

I too am sad to see people staying away and hope that the improvements that have been made will keep some of them around, but there are many different factors that contribute to changes. Suldaledhel has mentioned that vintage members have discussed so many topics that they tire of them. The demands of real life shouldn't be underestimated either - family and career/studies are high on the list of priorities, as they should be!

I must confess that I have a rather Elvish dislike of changes and tend to mourn past good times, but if there's one thing I've learned from Tolkien, it's the fact that change belongs to life and needs to be accepted.

I wouldn't risk a prediction on how long I will be around - who knows what life will bring? And there's no guarantee that the Barrow-Downs will be around forever (gasp!)...

**lindil** · 10-03-2002, 07:29 AM

very nteresting set of posts.

As an old-timer myself [here from the first season and 35!] I have seen the downs wax and wane and wax and wane...

and I think that unless one creates a project for oneself, one will sooner or later enivetiably run aground w/ the legendarium and any forum devoted to it.

This may take years or decades or months, depending on knowledge, time spent here and one's personality.

But I think contributing in a way that helps your own soul grow is the only key to staying with any hobby or craft. Just replying to the latest query in the Books or N&N will only last so long because as we have seen it is darn hard to keep coming up w/ original threads.

So while it could be valuable to find out the reasons why people are leaving, I imagine that relatively fwe people, decide: ok I am done w/ the downs [unless their spouses are standing behind them w/ wire cutters to sever the telephone wire, or like Galpsi's students, notice a distinct drop in his presnetations when he is downsing < hey did I coin that?>]

Most I imagine get sucked away into life, work, family, babies [notice saulotus' short lived return after announcing fatherhood], other interests.

back to my original point, people stay for years because they invest something in it.

And I don't mean are made admin's or moderator's [ although I must confess to a certain amount of vanity] but have a project or purpose.

Learning and conversing or composing in Quenya or sindarin is a suprisngly small area [ because it is far from easy for most of us I assume] Participating in the New Silmarillion, or adding to the Encyclopedia, writing Articles, etc, I would say that the majority of folks who have done some of the above to any depth are still around.

One other point, one really good reason to leave is spiritual growth. I left the Legendarium completely alone for years [ I think] while I devoted myself to meditation, Tai-Chi and sundries, I did not need to read about Elves , I was trying to become one [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] . Only after I became an Orthodox Christian did I come back to it.

So I think having people who are really offended or concerned tell an admin or mod is OK but IO must say the admins [ w/out any help from this mod, who is NOT, part of the inner circle ] are doing an awesome job of balancing maintaing the old downs while welcoming the new.

When you have a 400% increase in 2 years there will be growing pains, and right now maybe the downs is a gangly teenager, but hey that is life.

hope that made a little sense, I tried to make a point in there.

Maikadilwen · 10-03-2002, 09:03 AM

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but in the end there is only one opinion that counts here at the downs. The BW's. He created this place and he is in charge of it. Whatever happens to it will be his decission and that should be respected by all.

I too am sad to see older and more prominent members leave this place, but after all we are nothing but visitors in BW's "home" and if some people don't like the way he is "decorating" it, then this is probably not the place for them to be.

I have seen other boards suffer through some of the same problems as we experience here, and everywhere the reactions have been different. Some boards have closed for new members, others are comsumed by the flow and slowly dies away.
The Downs wants to survive this flow and in order to do so, changes have been made. I can't say I agree with all of these changes, but then again, the decission lies not with me but the BW and I can only respect that. After all, he's the one paying for it all and thus he has the last word.

I may have stepped on some toes now though I never intended to and if that is the case, then I am truly sorry.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

Elenna · 10-03-2002, 10:05 AM

I am sad to hear about the older members leaving the boards. As a relative newbie (since April), though, I would like to point out that not all of us post random things or don't know jack about Tolkien.

Classifying the new members as the cause of oldies losing interest is somewhat prejudiced. And if it really IS the problem, freezing membership is always an option.

**lindil** · 10-03-2002, 10:28 AM

Well, if someone leaves because they don't like the tone of the board, they better ask themselves 'what did I do to make it the way I would like to see it?'

Closing general membership is a very elitist thing, and I am very glad we did not go down that road. As soon as I heard that idea a moment ago I thought, well maybe something in between like a forum just for those who have been hear since say the first year 2000/may2001, and then by invitation only.

But on second thought while that kind of private tree-house idea might be great [and inspire some to post so well they get invited in] it would I think cause more damage as the 'cool' threads would be there and books would just be a newbies 2. I could be wrong...and am really just brainstorningthe implications of a new idea.

Maikadilwen : I think a couple points you make re: the running of the downs needs clarification, esp as this thread has the makings of a long and involved discourse.

As far as I know [and some admin or BW please correct me if I am wrong ]
BW has a core group of advisors who are folks chosen not because they sucked up to him or are personal friends, but becuase they contributed in some extraordinary way to the downs. They all work co-operatively on the downs, and also have at least at one time been financially involved. I can't say much more because that is all I know, being you could say on the outer ring of the inner circle [or is it the inner ring of the outercircle?] and that is just administrativey, pleae no one get the idea that the important thing about the downs is titles. The New Silmarillion project , the Fan-fic, language forums, and esoteric Dunedianian and Quendian discussions are the real Downs, not admin work and mod duties![oh yeah and the RPG's which I have never even peeped at [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

but anyway while The Barrow-Wight is undoubtedly The Man around here, he wisely has a council and delegates much, and I know from personalexperience is very open to doing whatever makes the Downs a great board.

If folks leave because there are a lot of younger fans who are not fluent with HoME then too bad, if we all did that we loose a great chance to share our already matured love of the Legendarium and Tolkien's many worlds. That is a pity. I trust I need say no more on that score.

It would be like Elves leaving Middle-Earth because hobbits are coming to Eriador.
If someone has a journey to undertake, and they no longer can or need to be here then God bless them and us. But if someone is disgruntled, then they are probably just not willing to grow a little. my 2 cents [again]

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Suldaledhel · 10-03-2002, 03:35 PM

As I continue to read this thread, I am beginning to sense a less-than-subtle accusation that I, personally, am opposed to new members. This is obviously not the case... or else I wouldn't be moderating an RPG thread and/or frequenting the chat room. I was merely offering a suggestion as to why some others may have left, or are posting less frequently than they used to.

I, personally, post less frequently either because I have already offered my thoughts over the course of my two years here, or I do not see the need to. By the time I begin browsing around the Books forum, most of the objective, matter-of-fact questions have been answered already--perhaps even several times, and I deliberately avoid the subjective, interpretive analysis threads. As a writer, I cringe at the thought of anyone tearing apart my ideas and tales as thoroughly and completely as is done here. Not that literary analysis is a bad thing... having a reader be able to identify with a character's complexities and motivations is the striving goal of the author, but I feel that certain nit-picking details would be better left unquestioned. As I would not like it done to me, so shall I do it not unto others. Thirdly, that nasty existence we call the "real world" is claiming more and more of my time--especially as of late. Finding the time to post an intelligent, cohesive thought is a precious commodity. As of is, I was rushed with my first post in this thread--almost missing classes! Regardless, I hope this clears up my
own reasons for being so lax with my postings.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Suldaledhel ]

Alkanoonion · 10-03-2002, 04:01 PM

This is not topic related but I just wanted to pass on this message that was posted in Vote for the Barrow Downs topic.

Quote:

I agree with red there, not to say anything bad of Ron, you're a great guy and the site is yours to manage as you see fit.
*breathes*

Okay. I hadn't planned on doing this, but suddenly I want to. I'm going to take this thread to pretty much say goodbye to all my downs friends. I'm hardly ever around the forum or the chat, so it's almost like i'm gone anyway. I may drop in from time to time like I have been but I don't think i'll ever really be back. I'm not looking for people asking me to stay or anything like that, I really just want to put a goodbye out there while my friends still read this forum and remember me.

So, in no particular order:

Barrow-Wight, Thena, Sharku, Gil, Mith, Underhill, red, Kate, Gwindor, oblo, burra, Ulmo(LegoIas), Dwarin, Legolas_Greenleaf, twinkle, Bruce, Rimbaud, Estelyn, zifnab, Lord_Aragorn, Telchar, Wil, Bonzai, Merendis, Orald, Miriel, Maril, and anyone else I forgot, please please forgive me. There are others that I probally would have become friends with had time allowed.

I could easily write a little note to most of you sharing my appreciation of your friendship and fond memories, but that would take a great deal of time and make this harder than it already is.

The only reason I can give for fading out is that I simply don't feel like I belong anymore, for whatever reason.

I will miss you all and will always treasure the good times, the bad times, and the thousands of laughs.

I can always be reached at mhoramdm@yahoo.com and would be happy to chat with any of you.

I wish nothing but the best for each and everyone of you and for this website that brought us all together. May your lives be fruitful and free of pain.

For long you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.

Farewell, my friends.
-David aka Mhoram

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 10-03-2002, 05:41 PM

For my part Suldaledhel I apologize if I gave the impression I had you or anyone in mind when I posted my little essays. I did not. I am actually blissfully ignorant of any politics, as there really do not seem to be any in the forums I moderate or inhabit.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Neferchoirwen · 10-04-2002, 02:45 AM

I sit here reading this thread feeling guitly of even thinking about its content a few days ago. I was away from the downs for almost four days, and the ideas expressed in this thread crept into my mind about two nights ago, like I dreamt of it. Seeing it here surprised me and at the same time, I wasn't surprised.

The first time I signed in, I was overwhelmed by the vast amounts of knowledge, and felt small in the eyes of other people who have lived here. I left for a few months and felt more lost than I first logged in.

In fairness to BW and to the other mods, they're all doing a great job. As for the older members who died again away from here, they're presence will be surely missed. Being too immature for talking about JRRT's works, I regret never having the chance to talk the talk with you.

New members are inevitable. The more they find out the movie, the more they find out about the books. The more they find out about both, they may more or less end up here...and vent out (for all the wrong reasons) about how hot Legolas or Aragorn are (In my case, it's Elrond). As for these BD "babies," they have to read (both the posts and the books), and at the same time, they have yet to mature. I guess this is a place for them to grow up in. Like they actually spent their childhood in here. I can say that for myself. Maybe that's why I could never leave.

After all said about this place--in its peaking and plummeting moments--I will still call this place home.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]

Elenna · 10-04-2002, 05:27 AM

I agree with Neferchoirwen - I myself am a hopefully-matured newbie. In April, when I joined, I was looking for some fun discussion during a boring study hall. Instead I found a community of fascinating and smart individuals. I have been happy to be a part of that community.

So all of you who have been here since 2000, wow. You're lucky to have had so much time. I suggested closing membership not so much to make this a "private tree house", but to make it a safe environment for all of those who feel threatened by the newcomers.

But that would be denying the newbies a wonderful experience

**lindil** · 10-04-2002, 10:53 AM

"But that would be denying the newbies a wonderful experience"

exactly.

Now I would at least w/out much thought going into the ramifications be willing to endorse a removal of the whole 'vote for the downs thing', not because it bothers me [ it used to but I saw how it got me here and 100o or so other folks before the movie ever came out, so I did not want to be any more hypocritical than I already am. However givng the downs a break from the recreuitment phase[like a college that is full] is not too bad an idea it seems to me. we do not keep folks out we just stop 'bar room shouting' as sam might say.

That way we become more Word of Mouth and hopefully can allow younger members who put the effort in to get here right after the movie to mature as some have said, without a constant influx of Legolas and aragorn gawkers. I like that idea alot actually, let us see of any of the admins respond....

Elenna · 10-04-2002, 12:51 PM

This idea would create a lot of work for the admins, but here goes anyway.

There could be an application for admission. Nothing terribly involved, but enough to discourage the fangirls. It could be a new e-mail address set up for that purpose...

Bêthberry · 10-04-2002, 03:04 PM

*coughs and raises hand with some trepidation to speak*

As one of the recently dead, I would like to say two things. And I feel pretty passionate about both of them, so please bear with the intensity of my words. Then tell me to get off my soapbox. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

First, I find the idea of closed membership absolutely appalling. How could the Administrators identify the kind of person a new Downer would be from one email? And second, why judge a person before he or she has a chance to demonstrate his or her qualities? Let people join, let us ensure we are good models of the kind of community we want here, and, finally, let new members have the chance to learn how to be good members. Let people prove they can rise to the heights of the bar before discriminating against them. I believe people learn, develope, improve, no matter where they start from. Why deny them that opportunity?

Second, I wish those who complain about the quality--or alleged lack of quality--in discussion at the Downs would take some time to look at other Tolkien sites on the Net. Very, very few--indeed, no other site--has succeeded the way the Downs has in maintaining thoughtful Tolkien discussion. The nature of discussion topics might have changed, but that is a function of the nature of discussion. Once certain areas or questions have been examined, other areas open up. Think of it as a paradigm shift that happens in science.

I came to the Downs in May because of the quality of the discussion here, the respectful, thoughtful way in which Downers address each other, and the presence of an imaginative, creative, wise team of administrators who take an active role in and show concern for the community. They aren't absentee landlords.

For instance, do many of you have any idea how much time, effort, and thought has gone into planning, implementing and then directing the RPG An Audience with the King? Nothing like it can be found anywhere else on the Net. I have an opportunity to come to know and post with younger kids that I might never had had the courage to try to talk with. I am learning just what it is that makes them tick as Tolkien fans and that helps me understand their posts and them. It is an awesome opportunity.

When William the Conquer invaded England in 1066, French did not become the language of the land. Instead, it intertwined with the native dialects. Old English was reborn in vigorous, new dialects. That is what I see happening here. Without new growth, languages, like Latin, die. And I take my analogy from the subject most dear to Tolkien, language itself.

Okay, rant over. I know that here at the Downs, it will not be rotten eggs thrown at me, but words, and the best kind of words at that. "Speak that I may see thee."

Bethberry

Elenna · 10-04-2002, 03:16 PM

Our administrators are doing a great job controlling off topic postings, but it's hard for them (I imagine) when 20 new people have joined every time they turn around.

And it was just a suggestion. I just hope whatever problems we are having (that I have not yet pinned down the cause of) can be solved before more awesome people like Mhoram leave.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Elenna ]

**lindil** · 10-04-2002, 04:26 PM

just for the record, I have not seen anyone in this thread which i have watched closely advocate closing membership.

2 of us have now mentioned adding a hurdle, to discourage the frivolous, but deny no one.

Elenna · 10-04-2002, 04:29 PM

Closing membership completely would be a mistake. I don't want to begrudge anyone the chance to be a part of something this cool.

But there are a few people who sign up merely for the reason that they want to sign up for something. That has to be expensive as far as bandwidth costs go.

I would like to remind everyone that our admins pay for this site, and what they don't make back through the store, they pay out of their own pockets. Therefore, when people are making ridiculous, off-topic posts, it's costing the Barrow-Wight and his team muchos dineros.

Bêthberry · 10-05-2002, 11:25 AM

In reading "Dangweth Pengolod" in HOME 12 this morning, I came upon this which I think pertains well to some of the points made here. This article is subtitled "the answer of Pengolod to Aelfwine who asked him how came it that the tongues of the Elves changed and were sundered."

Quote:

But behold! Æfwine, within Eä all things change, even the Valar; for in Eä we perceive the unfolding of a History in the unfolding.... the coirë quenya ["the living speech"], the language of thought, grows and lives within, and each new stage overlies those that went before, as the acorn and the sapling are hidden in the tree.

Bethberry

[ October 05, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

Gandalf_theGrey · 10-06-2002, 09:59 AM

Please allow me to add my two pieces of mithril to the discussion.

* looks up from the table where he's been enjoying seedcakes and ale, lights a conversational bowl of pipeweed, nods a good-natured greeting to all present *

Have you ever stopped to consider that all experts must start somewhere? Take the Fellowship of the Ring for example. Frodo, Samwise, Merry, Pippin ... when they first began their adventure, they could hardly be considered experts. Yet each one of these Hobbits proved a valuable contributor to the group. It was a matter of being open enough to recognize their potential, give them a chance, assist them with a little encouragement and guidance now and again.

* inhales smoke *

In a similar way, those who but glimpse an incomplete view of Middle Earth and its history through the magic of the palantir rather than through the effort of serious study of books, ought to be welcomed to the community of the Barrow Downs, should they come here seeking fellowship and willing to contribute their talents to the betterment of all through active participation in this realm.

And Bethberry, I admire the eloquence of your words in this discussion ... please allow those words to speak for me as well. * bows best he can from a sitting position * [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

Reyna Evergreen · 10-06-2002, 12:33 PM

I would also like to put in a few words.

Around one year ago I was caught in the Tolkien craze largely due to the upcoming movies based on the "incredible" series of books, Lord Of The Rings. I had read maybe half of The Fellowship Of The Ring (already half a book more than my entire school put together...) and was insanely obbsessed with the beautiful on-screen faces I saw for the movie trailer. This I admit.

I took up a search online to find a site where I could learn more about this new "phenomenon" and put in my share. Randomly, I clicked the link on the page titled "The Barrowdowns". That was one year ago this November. Never before had I seen, a year ago, so many people involved with a book...ever. The chat was full, and the Forum was in it's prime. People all over the world came here to talk about one thing that we all loved. I tried to find other sites to even compare to this. Result: none. Another thing made me stick: they were friendly.

Since then, I have finished the series and read the Silmarillion, but the Barrowdowns is still an active part of my life.

I am still a newbie, and frankly, I'm proud of it. But it pains me to hear that some of the older members are upset about the wave of newer people who have been introduced to these extraodinary books largely due to the advertisement of the movie.

I would like to say that I agree with Bethberry that chances and much patience are needed to have us here, but we need chances to prove ourselves. But I'd like to argue with the person saying that newer members should not be here.

Without new members, it takes away the spice and essence of a Forum. Sure there'll be the odd idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about, or another who posts a bunch of nonesence advertisement, but it also brings in a new wave of intelligent individuals too. So maybe most of the topics, questions and quote have been discussed? The newer people may bring in interesting new facts, or add on to the older questions. It really forms a circle; the originals discuss, newbies come in and join into the threads, then more come in and un-bury the older ones.

So I would like to give my gratitude towards the older members; without you guys, we wouldn't be here. And most of us wouldn't have stayed, because the Downs would have been just another Fanatic site. Now it's a community of over 4 000 members.

**lindil** · 10-06-2002, 12:57 PM

well said reyna.

I think one thing we should all consider is that this thread contains 'thoughts in progress' i.e. brainstorming.

Perhaps [ and I am most guilty] this is not wise, but I think as long as we listen to the concerns behind the suggestions we will all have a wider view of the downs.

The idea I put forward of eliminating the 'vote for us' link was to give the Downs a chance to stabilaize [perhaps before the next wave after the Two Towers]

this is to help the process of the downs maintaing the very qualities you so enjoyed [ very much liked your tale also, btw, AND you have already read the Silm!]not to create a private clique, but to simply recognize that all things go through cycles and winter, a natural time of pulling in is one of them. We have had a great spring [2000-1] and 2002 was def a time of rapid outward growth, perhaps 2003 can be more nurturing for those already here, and 2004/ the release of the return of the King - will find us all far more healthy and close knit as a community and ready to absorb another 3,500 or so folks w/ ease!

Of course anyone who finds there way here would be free to join, during this suggested 'winter season'.

Of course staying high profile may really be the best way to go.

"look not to the elves for answers for they will see both Yes and No."

I am extremely pleased w/ the Downs and I will happily abide whatever the truly good-willed admins come up w/.

a much belated welcome to the Downs Reyna!

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Elenna · 10-06-2002, 01:01 PM

I am just a bit worried about this community getting so big that those who have serious things to say will be pre-empted by the fangirls and other such "non-serious" folk. I don't think closing membership is a good idea, but nor do I think we can absorb another few thousand.

Lindil, you read my mind with your "Go not to the Elves" quote - that is what I've been thinking for this thread. Wooo - psychic over here!

Reyna Evergreen · 10-06-2002, 01:06 PM

I agree.

It (may) be obvious that another wave will come with TTT, but at least this time, "The Man" (as you put it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) will be prepared. Or so I hope.

Quote:

...to give the Downs a chance to stabilaize perhaps before the next wave after the Two Towers...

That is probably what we need. And the idea of making newer joiners go through a little process to avoid any teeny-boppers who want to talk about Orlando Bloom and his newest...whatever, is an incredible idea; might want to mention it to someone of high power. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Thank you very much for your compliments, Lindil, you make this place warmer. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Elanna, you have a point....
Maybe that is why the original members left in the first place; the newbies were everwhelming the Forum with there crazy and fanatic ways, and the older members might have gotten fed up and left before the newbies could change? *long sentence*

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Reyna Evergreen ]

Eol · 10-06-2002, 04:28 PM

Even though I am just coming up to a year at Barrow, it has been cool during that time.

I must confess one of the main reasons why my posting has dropped is because of RL. The possiblity of having to move to Portland during winter term and then there is work and college. My free time has kinda gone out of the window.

I would have to agree that one can get bored of a board once you are there long enough. That is why you "ghost" out and return later. Or you just sit back and wait for the right discussion to come around.

New memebers is not the main problem, just a factor. Think of it as such. Just as certain as death and taxes. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Let us in our actions, words and manner deminstrate to the newbies how this board is run and how to post.

As a tight nit community, well as previously stated; you said good bye to that type of structure once you hit 4 thousand registered users. They only way to maintain that smallness on the next is to keep about 100 to 200 registered users at the most.

*returns soap box to Bethberry*

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

HerenIstarion · 10-07-2002, 12:01 AM

I was watching this discussion with great interest, and may I please add my 2 cents [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]?

I dislike an idea of

Quote:

making newer joiners go through a little process to avoid any teeny-boppers

. When I was young and read the Hobbit for the first time, I was not seeking hidden intentionas and motives. Now I "see through". Not that is bad, but sometimes I miss my first feelings, but as well as that I recall with dread that I was only one to be in the knowledge of JRRT and there was no one to talk. And, mind you, I was not going to discuss orcish free will or balrog wings topics, I just wanted to share an excitement. Some kind of "you saw?!- Yeas! - It was Great! - Absolutely!"

Not much meaning, i agree, but that is where all began. Now taking

Quote:

teeny-boppers who want to talk about Orlando Bloom and his newest...

. There is a whole Movies Forum. Though I very seldom venture there, I know it to be most fitting place for such an excitement. Let them talk there. After a while they'll look around, figure out there is more to Tolkien than handsome archers and may even surpass us supposedly "Tolkien High-Brow" oldtimers in erudition and ispiration and creativeness. One never knows.

There is no suggestion on taking actions on my behalf. Just advice. Let it be as "knock, and door will open, ask and ye'll be given". Not francmasonry of any kind and degree.

I hope I made some sense [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 10-07-2002, 12:42 AM

much sense H-I, very much.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-07-2002, 08:49 AM

I have to agree with much of what's been said on the subject of time (real and imaginary). My opinion is that if a topic's worth discussing it's worth discussing well; so that I feel obliged to put in something articulate and fairly in-depth if I join a sensible thread; but these posts can take anything up to an hour and a half from initial conception to finished article and that's just one post on one of many threads. Like a lot of those members who have careers to get on with, I don't have a great deal of spare time, so that the Downs has to take its turn with all the other interests and obligations that demand my attention, which is why I sometimes ghost for weeks at a time. I'm sure that a lot of other people are in the same boat.

Having said that, before the new rules came into place there were occasions when I just couldn't be bothered to wade through the reams of "What's your favourite blade of grass in Middle-earth?" threads (mainly conducted in some sort of degraded version of pidgin English) in search of the merest hint of an original or interesting thought, but that again comes down to time and how much of it I have to spend: "CBE*," as Bernard Woolley once said. "Can't be everywhere"

Obviously those are only my reasons, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they apply to quite a few people, not to mention those that lindil mentioned, who simply can't spare us any time at all and have dropped out forever. It's sad that those whose time is least plentiful are often those whose posts are most worth reading, but that's life. With a few notable exceptions, I don't think that we can blame their departure or prolonged absence on any particular demographic changes on the boards. I think that we should bear that in mind and see how effective the new measures are before talking about application e-mails. After all, we don't know who'd be frightened off by any additional registration hurdles and those people might not turn out to be those whom we intended to deter.

* Alternatively and more usually "Commander of the Order of the British Empire"

10-03-2002, 05:05 AM	#1
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 392	The loss of knowledge I have a real concern that the site is in danger of losing its older more knowledgeable members. It is the older members who bring maturity and knowledge to Barrow Downs forum and that mix is what helps make the barrow downs such a great site for learning about Tolkien’s world. What I wanted to ask is it possible of one topic to be available for people to post ideas/suggestions or even grievances so that if a problem is identified it can be resolved. Many older members are leaving but they are not communicating the reasons why they are ghosting out. Instead of leaving why not let the moderator know the reason. Maybe the problems can be resolved with out the loss of all that knowledge. __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.

10-03-2002, 07:21 AM	#3
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,392	This is one of the reasons we set up the distinct Books and Newcomers boards. Those not interested in what less experienced members might have to say can avoid the latter board. I have not noticed any unusual migration of older members. Having been here since the boards opened, I have observed that there is a constant ebb and flow of members. Old members leave for a variety of reasons. Loss of interest, busy real lives, etc. New members come in and take their places. Sometimes old members return after an absence of several months. Its just part of the normal life of a message board. The last thing I want to incite is any conflict between older members and newer members. Both have their virtues and drawbacks. Just because a member joined a year ago rather than a month ago neither gives the older member greater rights on the boards nor any right to "lord it" over new members. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

10-03-2002, 07:21 AM	#4
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I too am sad to see people staying away and hope that the improvements that have been made will keep some of them around, but there are many different factors that contribute to changes. Suldaledhel has mentioned that vintage members have discussed so many topics that they tire of them. The demands of real life shouldn't be underestimated either - family and career/studies are high on the list of priorities, as they should be! I must confess that I have a rather Elvish dislike of changes and tend to mourn past good times, but if there's one thing I've learned from Tolkien, it's the fact that change belongs to life and needs to be accepted. I wouldn't risk a prediction on how long I will be around - who knows what life will bring? And there's no guarantee that the Barrow-Downs will be around forever (gasp!)... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-03-2002, 07:29 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	very nteresting set of posts. As an old-timer myself [here from the first season and 35!] I have seen the downs wax and wane and wax and wane... and I think that unless one creates a project for oneself, one will sooner or later enivetiably run aground w/ the legendarium and any forum devoted to it. This may take years or decades or months, depending on knowledge, time spent here and one's personality. But I think contributing in a way that helps your own soul grow is the only key to staying with any hobby or craft. Just replying to the latest query in the Books or N&N will only last so long because as we have seen it is darn hard to keep coming up w/ original threads. So while it could be valuable to find out the reasons why people are leaving, I imagine that relatively fwe people, decide: ok I am done w/ the downs [unless their spouses are standing behind them w/ wire cutters to sever the telephone wire, or like Galpsi's students, notice a distinct drop in his presnetations when he is downsing < hey did I coin that?>] Most I imagine get sucked away into life, work, family, babies [notice saulotus' short lived return after announcing fatherhood], other interests. back to my original point, people stay for years because they invest something in it. And I don't mean are made admin's or moderator's [ although I must confess to a certain amount of vanity] but have a project or purpose. Learning and conversing or composing in Quenya or sindarin is a suprisngly small area [ because it is far from easy for most of us I assume] Participating in the New Silmarillion, or adding to the Encyclopedia, writing Articles, etc, I would say that the majority of folks who have done some of the above to any depth are still around. One other point, one really good reason to leave is spiritual growth. I left the Legendarium completely alone for years [ I think] while I devoted myself to meditation, Tai-Chi and sundries, I did not need to read about Elves , I was trying to become one [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] . Only after I became an Orthodox Christian did I come back to it. So I think having people who are really offended or concerned tell an admin or mod is OK but IO must say the admins [ w/out any help from this mod, who is NOT, part of the inner circle ] are doing an awesome job of balancing maintaing the old downs while welcoming the new. When you have a 400% increase in 2 years there will be growing pains, and right now maybe the downs is a gangly teenager, but hey that is life. hope that made a little sense, I tried to make a point in there. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-03-2002, 09:03 AM	#6
Maikadilwen Summoner of Lost Souls Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: At home, with my Strongbow Posts: 521	Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but in the end there is only one opinion that counts here at the downs. The BW's. He created this place and he is in charge of it. Whatever happens to it will be his decission and that should be respected by all. I too am sad to see older and more prominent members leave this place, but after all we are nothing but visitors in BW's "home" and if some people don't like the way he is "decorating" it, then this is probably not the place for them to be. I have seen other boards suffer through some of the same problems as we experience here, and everywhere the reactions have been different. Some boards have closed for new members, others are comsumed by the flow and slowly dies away. The Downs wants to survive this flow and in order to do so, changes have been made. I can't say I agree with all of these changes, but then again, the decission lies not with me but the BW and I can only respect that. After all, he's the one paying for it all and thus he has the last word. I may have stepped on some toes now though I never intended to and if that is the case, then I am truly sorry. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ] __________________ -"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun."

10-03-2002, 10:05 AM	#7
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I am sad to hear about the older members leaving the boards. As a relative newbie (since April), though, I would like to point out that not all of us post random things or don't know jack about Tolkien. Classifying the new members as the cause of oldies losing interest is somewhat prejudiced. And if it really IS the problem, freezing membership is always an option. __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-03-2002, 10:28 AM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Well, if someone leaves because they don't like the tone of the board, they better ask themselves 'what did I do to make it the way I would like to see it?' Closing general membership is a very elitist thing, and I am very glad we did not go down that road. As soon as I heard that idea a moment ago I thought, well maybe something in between like a forum just for those who have been hear since say the first year 2000/may2001, and then by invitation only. But on second thought while that kind of private tree-house idea might be great [and inspire some to post so well they get invited in] it would I think cause more damage as the 'cool' threads would be there and books would just be a newbies 2. I could be wrong...and am really just brainstorningthe implications of a new idea. Maikadilwen : I think a couple points you make re: the running of the downs needs clarification, esp as this thread has the makings of a long and involved discourse. As far as I know [and some admin or BW please correct me if I am wrong ] BW has a core group of advisors who are folks chosen not because they sucked up to him or are personal friends, but becuase they contributed in some extraordinary way to the downs. They all work co-operatively on the downs, and also have at least at one time been financially involved. I can't say much more because that is all I know, being you could say on the outer ring of the inner circle [or is it the inner ring of the outercircle?] and that is just administrativey, pleae no one get the idea that the important thing about the downs is titles. The New Silmarillion project , the Fan-fic, language forums, and esoteric Dunedianian and Quendian discussions are the real Downs, not admin work and mod duties![oh yeah and the RPG's which I have never even peeped at [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] but anyway while The Barrow-Wight is undoubtedly The Man around here, he wisely has a council and delegates much, and I know from personalexperience is very open to doing whatever makes the Downs a great board. If folks leave because there are a lot of younger fans who are not fluent with HoME then too bad, if we all did that we loose a great chance to share our already matured love of the Legendarium and Tolkien's many worlds. That is a pity. I trust I need say no more on that score. It would be like Elves leaving Middle-Earth because hobbits are coming to Eriador. If someone has a journey to undertake, and they no longer can or need to be here then God bless them and us. But if someone is disgruntled, then they are probably just not willing to grow a little. my 2 cents [again] [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-03-2002, 03:35 PM	#9
Suldaledhel Eru's Gift Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Where pride pays silver and plays golden Posts: 215	As I continue to read this thread, I am beginning to sense a less-than-subtle accusation that I, personally, am opposed to new members. This is obviously not the case... or else I wouldn't be moderating an RPG thread and/or frequenting the chat room. I was merely offering a suggestion as to why some others may have left, or are posting less frequently than they used to. I, personally, post less frequently either because I have already offered my thoughts over the course of my two years here, or I do not see the need to. By the time I begin browsing around the Books forum, most of the objective, matter-of-fact questions have been answered already--perhaps even several times, and I deliberately avoid the subjective, interpretive analysis threads. As a writer, I cringe at the thought of anyone tearing apart my ideas and tales as thoroughly and completely as is done here. Not that literary analysis is a bad thing... having a reader be able to identify with a character's complexities and motivations is the striving goal of the author, but I feel that certain nit-picking details would be better left unquestioned. As I would not like it done to me, so shall I do it not unto others. Thirdly, that nasty existence we call the "real world" is claiming more and more of my time--especially as of late. Finding the time to post an intelligent, cohesive thought is a precious commodity. As of is, I was rushed with my first post in this thread--almost missing classes! Regardless, I hope this clears up my own reasons for being so lax with my postings. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Suldaledhel ]

10-03-2002, 05:41 PM	#11
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	For my part Suldaledhel I apologize if I gave the impression I had you or anyone in mind when I posted my little essays. I did not. I am actually blissfully ignorant of any politics, as there really do not seem to be any in the forums I moderate or inhabit. [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-04-2002, 02:45 AM	#12
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 512	I sit here reading this thread feeling guitly of even thinking about its content a few days ago. I was away from the downs for almost four days, and the ideas expressed in this thread crept into my mind about two nights ago, like I dreamt of it. Seeing it here surprised me and at the same time, I wasn't surprised. The first time I signed in, I was overwhelmed by the vast amounts of knowledge, and felt small in the eyes of other people who have lived here. I left for a few months and felt more lost than I first logged in. In fairness to BW and to the other mods, they're all doing a great job. As for the older members who died again away from here, they're presence will be surely missed. Being too immature for talking about JRRT's works, I regret never having the chance to talk the talk with you. New members are inevitable. The more they find out the movie, the more they find out about the books. The more they find out about both, they may more or less end up here...and vent out (for all the wrong reasons) about how hot Legolas or Aragorn are (In my case, it's Elrond). As for these BD "babies," they have to read (both the posts and the books), and at the same time, they have yet to mature. I guess this is a place for them to grow up in. Like they actually spent their childhood in here. I can say that for myself. Maybe that's why I could never leave. After all said about this place--in its peaking and plummeting moments--I will still call this place home. [ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ] __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

10-04-2002, 05:27 AM	#13
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I agree with Neferchoirwen - I myself am a hopefully-matured newbie. In April, when I joined, I was looking for some fun discussion during a boring study hall. Instead I found a community of fascinating and smart individuals. I have been happy to be a part of that community. So all of you who have been here since 2000, wow. You're lucky to have had so much time. I suggested closing membership not so much to make this a "private tree house", but to make it a safe environment for all of those who feel threatened by the newcomers. But that would be denying the newbies a wonderful experience __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-04-2002, 10:53 AM	#14
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"But that would be denying the newbies a wonderful experience" exactly. Now I would at least w/out much thought going into the ramifications be willing to endorse a removal of the whole 'vote for the downs thing', not because it bothers me [ it used to but I saw how it got me here and 100o or so other folks before the movie ever came out, so I did not want to be any more hypocritical than I already am. However givng the downs a break from the recreuitment phase[like a college that is full] is not too bad an idea it seems to me. we do not keep folks out we just stop 'bar room shouting' as sam might say. That way we become more Word of Mouth and hopefully can allow younger members who put the effort in to get here right after the movie to mature as some have said, without a constant influx of Legolas and aragorn gawkers. I like that idea alot actually, let us see of any of the admins respond.... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-04-2002, 12:51 PM	#15
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	This idea would create a lot of work for the admins, but here goes anyway. There could be an application for admission. Nothing terribly involved, but enough to discourage the fangirls. It could be a new e-mail address set up for that purpose... __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-04-2002, 03:04 PM	#16
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	coughs and raises hand with some trepidation to speak As one of the recently dead, I would like to say two things. And I feel pretty passionate about both of them, so please bear with the intensity of my words. Then tell me to get off my soapbox. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] First, I find the idea of closed membership absolutely appalling. How could the Administrators identify the kind of person a new Downer would be from one email? And second, why judge a person before he or she has a chance to demonstrate his or her qualities? Let people join, let us ensure we are good models of the kind of community we want here, and, finally, let new members have the chance to learn how to be good members. Let people prove they can rise to the heights of the bar before discriminating against them. I believe people learn, develope, improve, no matter where they start from. Why deny them that opportunity? Second, I wish those who complain about the quality--or alleged lack of quality--in discussion at the Downs would take some time to look at other Tolkien sites on the Net. Very, very few--indeed, no other site--has succeeded the way the Downs has in maintaining thoughtful Tolkien discussion. The nature of discussion topics might have changed, but that is a function of the nature of discussion. Once certain areas or questions have been examined, other areas open up. Think of it as a paradigm shift that happens in science. I came to the Downs in May because of the quality of the discussion here, the respectful, thoughtful way in which Downers address each other, and the presence of an imaginative, creative, wise team of administrators who take an active role in and show concern for the community. They aren't absentee landlords. For instance, do many of you have any idea how much time, effort, and thought has gone into planning, implementing and then directing the RPG An Audience with the King? Nothing like it can be found anywhere else on the Net. I have an opportunity to come to know and post with younger kids that I might never had had the courage to try to talk with. I am learning just what it is that makes them tick as Tolkien fans and that helps me understand their posts and them. It is an awesome opportunity. When William the Conquer invaded England in 1066, French did not become the language of the land. Instead, it intertwined with the native dialects. Old English was reborn in vigorous, new dialects. That is what I see happening here. Without new growth, languages, like Latin, die. And I take my analogy from the subject most dear to Tolkien, language itself. Okay, rant over. I know that here at the Downs, it will not be rotten eggs thrown at me, but words, and the best kind of words at that. "Speak that I may see thee." Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-04-2002, 03:16 PM	#17
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	Our administrators are doing a great job controlling off topic postings, but it's hard for them (I imagine) when 20 new people have joined every time they turn around. And it was just a suggestion. I just hope whatever problems we are having (that I have not yet pinned down the cause of) can be solved before more awesome people like Mhoram leave. [ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Elenna ] __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-04-2002, 04:26 PM	#18
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	just for the record, I have not seen anyone in this thread which i have watched closely advocate closing membership. 2 of us have now mentioned adding a hurdle, to discourage the frivolous, but deny no one. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-04-2002, 04:29 PM	#19
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	Closing membership completely would be a mistake. I don't want to begrudge anyone the chance to be a part of something this cool. But there are a few people who sign up merely for the reason that they want to sign up for something. That has to be expensive as far as bandwidth costs go. I would like to remind everyone that our admins pay for this site, and what they don't make back through the store, they pay out of their own pockets. Therefore, when people are making ridiculous, off-topic posts, it's costing the Barrow-Wight and his team muchos dineros. __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-06-2002, 09:59 AM	#21
Gandalf_theGrey Visionary Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 633	Please allow me to add my two pieces of mithril to the discussion. * looks up from the table where he's been enjoying seedcakes and ale, lights a conversational bowl of pipeweed, nods a good-natured greeting to all present * Have you ever stopped to consider that all experts must start somewhere? Take the Fellowship of the Ring for example. Frodo, Samwise, Merry, Pippin ... when they first began their adventure, they could hardly be considered experts. Yet each one of these Hobbits proved a valuable contributor to the group. It was a matter of being open enough to recognize their potential, give them a chance, assist them with a little encouragement and guidance now and again. * inhales smoke * In a similar way, those who but glimpse an incomplete view of Middle Earth and its history through the magic of the palantir rather than through the effort of serious study of books, ought to be welcomed to the community of the Barrow Downs, should they come here seeking fellowship and willing to contribute their talents to the betterment of all through active participation in this realm. And Bethberry, I admire the eloquence of your words in this discussion ... please allow those words to speak for me as well. * bows best he can from a sitting position * [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] At your Service, Gandalf the Grey

10-06-2002, 12:33 PM	#22
Reyna Evergreen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Canada Posts: 69	I would also like to put in a few words. Around one year ago I was caught in the Tolkien craze largely due to the upcoming movies based on the "incredible" series of books, Lord Of The Rings. I had read maybe half of The Fellowship Of The Ring (already half a book more than my entire school put together...) and was insanely obbsessed with the beautiful on-screen faces I saw for the movie trailer. This I admit. I took up a search online to find a site where I could learn more about this new "phenomenon" and put in my share. Randomly, I clicked the link on the page titled "The Barrowdowns". That was one year ago this November. Never before had I seen, a year ago, so many people involved with a book...ever. The chat was full, and the Forum was in it's prime. People all over the world came here to talk about one thing that we all loved. I tried to find other sites to even compare to this. Result: none. Another thing made me stick: they were friendly. Since then, I have finished the series and read the Silmarillion, but the Barrowdowns is still an active part of my life. I am still a newbie, and frankly, I'm proud of it. But it pains me to hear that some of the older members are upset about the wave of newer people who have been introduced to these extraodinary books largely due to the advertisement of the movie. I would like to say that I agree with Bethberry that chances and much patience are needed to have us here, but we need chances to prove ourselves. But I'd like to argue with the person saying that newer members should not be here. Without new members, it takes away the spice and essence of a Forum. Sure there'll be the odd idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about, or another who posts a bunch of nonesence advertisement, but it also brings in a new wave of intelligent individuals too. So maybe most of the topics, questions and quote have been discussed? The newer people may bring in interesting new facts, or add on to the older questions. It really forms a circle; the originals discuss, newbies come in and join into the threads, then more come in and un-bury the older ones. So I would like to give my gratitude towards the older members; without you guys, we wouldn't be here. And most of us wouldn't have stayed, because the Downs would have been just another Fanatic site. Now it's a community of over 4 000 members. __________________ "Utúlie 'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie 'n aurë!" The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, day has come!

10-06-2002, 12:57 PM	#23
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	well said reyna. I think one thing we should all consider is that this thread contains 'thoughts in progress' i.e. brainstorming. Perhaps [ and I am most guilty] this is not wise, but I think as long as we listen to the concerns behind the suggestions we will all have a wider view of the downs. The idea I put forward of eliminating the 'vote for us' link was to give the Downs a chance to stabilaize [perhaps before the next wave after the Two Towers] this is to help the process of the downs maintaing the very qualities you so enjoyed [ very much liked your tale also, btw, AND you have already read the Silm!]not to create a private clique, but to simply recognize that all things go through cycles and winter, a natural time of pulling in is one of them. We have had a great spring [2000-1] and 2002 was def a time of rapid outward growth, perhaps 2003 can be more nurturing for those already here, and 2004/ the release of the return of the King - will find us all far more healthy and close knit as a community and ready to absorb another 3,500 or so folks w/ ease! Of course anyone who finds there way here would be free to join, during this suggested 'winter season'. Of course staying high profile may really be the best way to go. "look not to the elves for answers for they will see both Yes and No." I am extremely pleased w/ the Downs and I will happily abide whatever the truly good-willed admins come up w/. a much belated welcome to the Downs Reyna! [ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-06-2002, 01:01 PM	#24
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I am just a bit worried about this community getting so big that those who have serious things to say will be pre-empted by the fangirls and other such "non-serious" folk. I don't think closing membership is a good idea, but nor do I think we can absorb another few thousand. Lindil, you read my mind with your "Go not to the Elves" quote - that is what I've been thinking for this thread. Wooo - psychic over here! __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-06-2002, 04:28 PM	#26
Eol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Pacific Northwest - Tir Nan Og Posts: 306	Even though I am just coming up to a year at Barrow, it has been cool during that time. I must confess one of the main reasons why my posting has dropped is because of RL. The possiblity of having to move to Portland during winter term and then there is work and college. My free time has kinda gone out of the window. I would have to agree that one can get bored of a board once you are there long enough. That is why you "ghost" out and return later. Or you just sit back and wait for the right discussion to come around. New memebers is not the main problem, just a factor. Think of it as such. Just as certain as death and taxes. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Let us in our actions, words and manner deminstrate to the newbies how this board is run and how to post. As a tight nit community, well as previously stated; you said good bye to that type of structure once you hit 4 thousand registered users. They only way to maintain that smallness on the next is to keep about 100 to 200 registered users at the most. returns soap box to Bethberry [ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ] __________________ Mes sana in corpec sano- (lt.) A sound mind in a sound body

10-07-2002, 12:42 AM	#28
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	much sense H-I, very much. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-07-2002, 08:49 AM	#29
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I have to agree with much of what's been said on the subject of time (real and imaginary). My opinion is that if a topic's worth discussing it's worth discussing well; so that I feel obliged to put in something articulate and fairly in-depth if I join a sensible thread; but these posts can take anything up to an hour and a half from initial conception to finished article and that's just one post on one of many threads. Like a lot of those members who have careers to get on with, I don't have a great deal of spare time, so that the Downs has to take its turn with all the other interests and obligations that demand my attention, which is why I sometimes ghost for weeks at a time. I'm sure that a lot of other people are in the same boat. Having said that, before the new rules came into place there were occasions when I just couldn't be bothered to wade through the reams of "What's your favourite blade of grass in Middle-earth?" threads (mainly conducted in some sort of degraded version of pidgin English) in search of the merest hint of an original or interesting thought, but that again comes down to time and how much of it I have to spend: "CBE," as Bernard Woolley once said. "Can't be everywhere" Obviously those are only my reasons, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they apply to quite a few people, not to mention those that lindil mentioned, who simply can't spare us any time at all and have dropped out forever. It's sad that those whose time is least plentiful are often those whose posts are most worth reading, but that's life. With a few notable exceptions, I don't think that we can blame their departure or prolonged absence on any particular demographic changes on the boards. I think that we should bear that in mind and see how effective the new measures are before talking about application e-mails. After all, we don't know who'd be frightened off by any additional registration hurdles and those people might not turn out to be those whom we intended to deter. Alternatively and more usually "Commander of the Order of the British Empire" __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 07-07-2004 at 03:21 AM.