Ruin of Doriath - Húrin in Nargothrond

[Maédhros]

Actually Findegil, my offer was the second draft which is not posted in the Private Forum yet.

[Findegil]

Okay this is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.

Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

<WH §266 But Húrin stood silent, and when the company departed, bearing away the body of Manthor, he did not turn. He looked ever west till the sun fell into dark cloud and the light failed; and then he went down alone towards the Hauð-en-Elleth.>

§1a (§267) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Avranc were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Avranc to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>

§1b (§268) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of {Glomund}[Glaurung] and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under Avranc and made ready to depart, <WH N54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}had now been venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}[was] glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.

§1d (§269) WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>

§1e (§270) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn they choose }[Asgon] was chosen for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}wanted. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his man] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last {late in this year} to Nargothrond. It is said … More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew<editorial addition same of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves … after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells.

§3b (§273) RD-EX-08<TT Now therefore when {those Elves}[Húrin and his following] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>

§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <Sil77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§275) Sil77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and … my people.'>

§4b (§276) RD-EX-10 <TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine.’

§4c (§277) TT Then said that dwarf{, and his name was Mîm}: ‘O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not … it to myself.’

§4d (§278) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses{.}> RD-EX-11 {But the folk of Mîm were few}, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold. RD-SL-04 <TT {But Mîm}And dying Mîm said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men … his folk laughed.>

§8 (§279) RD-SL-05{And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], … empty woods.’

§9 (§280) TT Now his heart was … finders for ever.>

§10a (§281) RD-SL-06 <TT Yet in the end that laden host came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts{,’ and} .’ And when this was done{.}>, < Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>

§10b (§282) RD-EX-12 <TTThen {Úrin}[Húrin] let bear all … did {Nienori}[Nienor] my daughter die?’>

§11 (§283) RD-EX-13 <Sil77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn.> RD-EX-14 <TTThen did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and … is all your heart contains.’>

§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TTuncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. ‘Behold the hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung],’ said {Úrin}[Húrin], ‘bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.’>

§13 §(285) RD-EX-17 <Sil77 And{and} he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the treasure of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men; and I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath!'>

§15 (§286) Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he {bore}had borne with Húrin; but now when Húrin scorned him again, RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, … ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>

§16 (§287) RD-SL-07 {and[ Húrin] wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth;}<Sil77 {then he}Then Húrin turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I have some notes regarding the following:

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his man] there is no tale told,

It should be:
§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told

<editorial addition same of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>
should be:
<editorial addition some of> what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

Just minor points really.

[Aiwendil]

Avranc should be changed to Daruin per WH note 55

RD-EX-02

<WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}had now been venturing back into the land to seek him.

I think perhaps that ". . . and was now venturing back . . ." would sound more natural.

RD-EX-04

<WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn they choose }[Asgon] was chosen for captain but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}wanted.

We could stick closer to the text with:

{Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose} chose for captain but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed.

RD-EX-05

<WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin [and his man] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last {late in this year} to Nargothrond.

Maedhros has noted the mistake "man" for "men".

I understand the deletion of "late in this year" because we are taking it out of the context of the annals - but couldn't we retain it by making it "late in the year"? Thus:

<WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin [and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this} the year to Nargothrond.

RD-EX-06

and Húrin knew <editorial addition same of> what had befallen there.

Clearly it should be "some of". But I don't think I understand the need for this editorial addition.

RD-EX-08

<TT Now therefore when {those Elves}[Húrin and his following] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?'>

We could simply change Elves to Men to stay closer to the text:

<TT Now therefore when those {Elves} [Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Guilin], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?'>

Why is "Galweg" changed to "Guilin"? Galweg was Failivrin's father, not Gwindor's. Of course now her father is Orodreth; I would replace Galweg with Orodreth.

RD-EX-08 to EX-10:

I don't think the sequence of dialogue quite works. Hurin's "we come to take what is not thine" seems like it ought to follow directly from Mim's "what will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?" Perhaps we could merge RD-EX-09 with RD-EX-10:

<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: ‘We come to take what is not thine. <QS77 Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'

§4a (§275) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkizdîn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.> O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'>

Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.

RD-EX-11

{But the folk of Mîm were few}, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.

I think it would serve the sense better to start a new sentence and to use "but":

But {the folk of Mîm were few, and} the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.

I still go back and forth, to be honest (and this is a storyline issue), on whether GA represents a reversion to the story that Hurin killed Mim. But it's a minor point, and one that could easily be changed if we change our minds.

RD-EX-17
Hurin's words here ("Receive thou thy fee . . .") were intended to be what he said immediately upon revealing the treasure. It doesn't work to first use his words from TT and to simply follow them with the equivalent words form QS77. Also the words "where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him . . ." don't seem to work when the treasure is no longer just the Nauglamir (I think these are Christopher's invention, though I could be wrong). Perhaps:

§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TTuncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>

I altered "treasure" to "hoard" to match more closely the equivalent words in TT.

Also, I don't understand the need for the change "name" > "fame".

§15 (§286) Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he {bore}had bornewith Húrin; but now when Húrin scorned him again,

This piece is a bit problematic. I see the purpose of your changes: to alter it so that it is describing, in the pluperfect, what has just passed. But if it does so and nothing more I see no reason to keep it. Why not just:

§15 (§286) {Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Húrin; but Húrin scorned him}, RD-EX-18 <TTThen were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, . . .

Other than that, everything in this section looks good to me.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-05 "late in this year" -> " " or "late in the year"
I did the change the way it was marked following the plot synopsis to the Narn given in WH were Húrin reached Nargothrond in 502. But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.

RD-EX-06 addition of "some of"
Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says. But see further down.

RD-EX-08 "Galweg" -> "Guilin" or "Orodreth"
My vault, sorry I thought he was the father of Flinding and never checked it. My apologise to Maédhros how had it right from the start.

RD-EX-09 & RD-EX-10

Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.

We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion. In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn following The Later Quenta Silmarillion chapter 10: The Siege of Angband; note to §101.

RD-EX-11

But {the folk of Mîm were few, and} the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew {them}him, though Húrin would have stayed them, and at his death Mîm cursed the gold.

Agreed, but ...
RD-SL-03:

I still go back and forth, to be honest (and this is a storyline issue), on whether GA represents a reversion to the story that Hurin killed Mim. But it's a minor point, and one that could easily be changed if we change our minds.

I am also unsure about that. While searching for my reason for change RD-EX-05 discussed above I found the following WH plot synopsis for the Narn:

502.
Tuor weds Idril daughter of Turgon.
Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf.
He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Hurin is admitted in pity.

Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

RD-EX-17 Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words. Leading to:

§12 (§284) Then Húrin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, RD-EX-15 <TT uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s men understood now what was forward and RD-EX-16 <editorial addition many> were little pleased. RD-EX-17 <QS77 And Húrin{and he} reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. ‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the {Nauglamír}[the hoard of Glaurung], whose {name}[fame] is known to many among Elves and Men,> bought by the death of {Nienori}[Nienor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>

"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really. We could take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name but I found it more fitting to change to "fame". If we take "Hoard of Glaurung" as a name we should capitalise it here and anywhere else.

§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.

While searching back what I did and why (the first part where Maédhros and I agreed nearly were not change much from our earlier drafts, and thus some time has been elapsed since I proposed these changes) I found one further passage that we might consider for addition: WH the last end of the Grey Annals:

Here the text stops abruptly; but on the same page and clearly at the same time my father wrote the following:

Hurin goes to seek Gondolin. Fails. Passes by Brethil, and his anguish is increased. They will not admit him - saying that the Halethrim do not wish any more to become enmeshed in the shadow of his kin. But A [?new] Lord gives the dragon-helm to Hurin. His heart is hot against Thingol. He passes it [Doriath] by and goes on to Nargothrond. Why? To seek news, plunder, - he had been an admirer of Felagund.
News of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed Maeðros, but did not all displease Celeg[orn] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But the Dwarves of [sic] How did Mim find it? He must come of a different race.

I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news. I would add them thus:

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

§3a (§272) {But one Mîm the Dwarf they found there.} RD-SL-03{This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin, the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.} RD-EX-07 <Sil77 Here it must be told that <RD-EX-07.5 <WH {News}news of the fall of Nargothrond came to sons of Feanor, and dismayed {Maeðros}[Maedhros], but did not all displease {Celeg[orn]}[Celegorm] and Curufin. But when the news of the dragon's fall was heard, then many wondered concerning its hoard and who was the master? Some Orc-lord, men thought. But> after the departure of Glaurung Mîm the Petty-Dwarf had found his way to Nargothrond>. Now Mîm had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells.

All suggestions of Aiwendil I did not comment on I agree with and if Maédhros (or any body else) does not gainsay it, I will change them in the next version of test accordingly.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Come to think of it, whence derives the dialogue from QS77? I don't have all the books at hand, but I can't think of a source. Did Christopher invent it? If so, we might just drop it completely and follow the dialogue in TT.

I think that with the justification that Findegil provided, it think that it is safe to keep it, and for that I'm glad.

This piece is a bit problematic. I see the purpose of your changes: to alter it so that it is describing, in the pluperfect, what has just passed. But if it does so and nothing more I see no reason to keep it.

I think that we should make every effort to keep that line, and I think that Findegil provided a good reason for it to be done.

Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

I think that we must make Húrin kill Mîm. If you see the whole part in the Wanderings of Húrin

Tuor weds Idril daughter of Turgon.
Húrin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mîm the petty-dwarf. He and his men carry off the treasure of Glaurung and bring it to Doriath. Húrin is admitted in pity.

At first I thought that it was only Húrin who came to Nargothrond, but I noticed that the next sentence has his men carry the treasure. I think that there is no doubt that this is the later idea of JRRT regarding this and we must be faithful to it.

I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news. I would add them thus:

I really like this:

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.
So I would add this:

§1f (§271) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, and came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case; while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin. More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5>WH / for while in Brethil he was given / the dragon-helm and of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund. RD-EX-06 <QS77 {and}They passed southwards down the ancient road that led to Nargothrond; and {he}they saw far off to the eastward the lonely height of Amon Rûdh, and Húrin knew what had befallen there. At length {he}they came to the banks of Narog, and ventured the passage of the wild river upon the fallen stones of the bridge, as Mablung of Doriath had ventured it before {him}them; and {he}they stood before the broken Doors of Felagund, Húrin leaning upon his staff.>

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-05

Findegil wrote:

But since we used the possibly later TY as the ruling source in all other querstions we should probably stick to it here.

Agreed; the whole episode should take place in 501, so we can keep "late in the year".

RD-EX-06

Findegil:

Since we had agreed to let Húrin been reluctance to the killing of Mîm by his men I sought it necessary to make Húrin not all knowing in that case. But I might have over done it here since it might not be expected that Húrin did know all details from what the original text says.

I do see your point; but I don't think that Hurin's full knowledge concerning the story would necessarily have any effect on whether or not he was willing to kill Mim.

RD-EX-09 and RD-EX-10

Findegil:

We have no source for the Sil77 dialog. So you might be right to use TT exclusively. But the claim of Mîm that his people had build the halls are based on Quendi and Eldar and are nowwhere else given if we do not introduce it (here and/or in other places). In addition it would be a shame to lose it here. So I think we should use your suggestion.

And Maedhros:

I think that with the justification that Findegil provided, it think that it is safe to keep it, and for that I'm glad.

I am hesitant about using dialogue written by CT unless we really need to. But it is a good point that this particular datum concerning the Petty-dwarves is not elsewhere given. I suppose in view of that we can retain the QS77 dialogue as in my suggestion.

Findegil:

In addition Nulukkizdin must be changed to Nulukhizdīn

Or rather "Nulukkhizdīn" with two "k"s. Good catch.

RD-SL-03

Findegil:

Here as in the TY it is Húrin who kills Mîm the traitor of Túrin. Thus it might be that Tolkien changed his mind on this topic after Q30. But I don't see it as such a easy thing to change, or do we simply go back to TT where Úrin kills Mîm for his behavior and without any other reason or do we put in some Sil77 material?

And Maedhros:

I think that we must make Húrin kill Mîm.

The question is whether the bald sentences in TY and the Narn plot-synopsis are to be taken as formulating a new story or as mere compression. I can imagine that "Hurin slays Mim" in such a context could still represent the Q30 story, even if on the surface it looks like it contradicts it.

But the more I think about it the more forced such an interpretation looks to me. I don't see it as being an especially difficult change to implement; is there any reason not to simply use the TT version?

RD-EX-17

Findegil:

Your suggested changes read better then mine. But I would hold the introduction of Húrins words.

Your suggestion looks good to me.

"name" -> "fame": In the Sil77 Nauglamír is really a name, now the treasure of Glaurung is not really.

Ah. I understand, and agree with the change.

§15: I wanted to hold that phrase out of two reasons, and both are debatable:
1. It did emphasis that Thingol did at first not desired the hoard.
2. It did emphasis the longanimity that Thingol showed Húrin in their encounter.
Both, I think, are dealt with in the TT passage more implicit, than in the later Q30 account.

Maedhros:

I think that we should make every effort to keep that line, and I think that Findegil provided a good reason for it to be done.

Yes, I agree it would be desirable to keep the line. But only if it can be done without awkwardness. It doesn't work to insert it here between Hurin's words and Thingol's reaction to them. Perhaps there's a better way to do it.

Findegil:

I thought that it might be possible to add the part about Húrins admiration for Felagund, and the Information about the sons of Feanor and their reaction to the news.

Yes, I had forgotten about that note, but we ought to include it. Your suggestion is good.

Maedhros wrote:

But there must be a way to include the fact that Húrin was given the dragon helm in Brethil.

Now this is an interesting issue. There are really two distinct things for us to think about here:

1. The Narn - is the projected revision that extends the history of the Dragon-helm beyond the battle on Amon Rudh workable or not? It would require some revision to the Narn, and it's hard to judge how much. If it's not, then the Dragon-helm was not in Brethil, and of course cannot be mentioned here.

2. The Wanderings of Hurin - the note suggesting that Hurin was given the Dragon-helm comes from before the development of the "Hurin in Brethil" story, and indeed from before the development of the character of Hardang. The note has the new lord of the people give the helm to Hurin - but Hardang does not do this in "Wanderings" (and indeed it is very difficult to imagine him doing so). The early conception seems to have been that the new lord would have been friendly with Hurin. For Hurin to receive the Dragon-helm now would require a different story.

Even if we could justify it, it is no easy matter to insert it into the text. It is very awkward to simply say "he was given the Dragon-helm".

For these reasons I fear it may prove impossible for us to use the Dragon-helm (though I admit I would very much like to if it were possible).