The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Statures of Elves and Men: Changes

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Beautiful work!
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Thank you. I did this last year for a debate at Tolkien Online, so it is probably not quite _on topic_ in some details, but close enough.


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Of course part of the problem is that Tolkien is usually talking averages. Presumably there were always some Elves shorter than some Men, and some Men shorter than some Elves, and so forth.
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I agree, this is refering to averages.

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And really what can you make of the &quot;Quendi and Eldar&quot; statement on the Sindar:
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In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.
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My take on this is that the Sindar resemble the Noldor, but are not as strongly built, they are more lithe than the Noldor. This is in keeping with Numenorean Linear Measures in UT where it is noted that the 'Teleri were in general [an average ] somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor'.


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&quot;Strong and tall&quot; compared to whom? The Nandor and the Avari. They were of the same origin and kin as the Noldor and Sindar. Perhaps Elves tended to dwindle or grow physically in their long years of life reflecting to some degree the power of their spirits, and so Noldor and Sindar had physically outgrown the other Elves. If so, JRRT does not mention such a thing.
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The Noldor are noted for their height and strength from their beginning: &quot;...and they [the fourth group of Quendi found] were tall and dark-haired and strong like fir trees, and from them most of the Noldor later were sprung.&quot;
Appendix to Quendi and Eldar (the Awakening Legend).
The other groups have no similar physical descriptions made.

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Perhaps they are &quot;strong and tall&quot; compared to Men? Probably not particularly.
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I would say probably yes. That is compared to Men (in general) on average.


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Taller on the averge than the Bëorians and House of Haleth perhaps, and more equal to the Hadorians? Maybe that is all that is meant?
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The way I interpret it is that the Hadorians were the tallest of the Edain (until they interbred and became less distinct) and rivalled the Noldor (on average). The Sindar and Beorians were shorter (on average) and perhaps more alike in height.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Galin]

Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

The Numenoreans...

'... the Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Numenoreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.

[arathorn]

Originally Posted by Galin

Just to add to Tar-Elenion's work here, something 'newer' revealed by Hammond and Scull...





The Numenoreans...





The problem is, I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the late statement from Of Dwarves And Men (in which the Eldar seem generally taller); and I'm not sure, so far, if there's any way to tell.

Although we must not forget that both sentences can fit just fine if we consider that "seldom less" and "no less" indicate a minimum rather than average like you are suggesting .
Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??

[Galin]

LOL! This again. Nor should we forget the interpretation that these ideas do not necessarily agree -- and need not necessarily agree, like other ideas and details also found in an author's draft texts. And speaking of forgetting, nor should we forget that with respect to late texts, Tolkien himself even noted that his memory was not retentive; noting that 'late texts', while seemingly written in the same general time frame, could still be written many months apart, or even years apart.

Anyway I agree that sentence may have more than one interpretation but why should we care about the one it's conflicted if both are of late dates and the other can fit perfectly??

You don't have to care. No one has to care. But if the sentences in question do have more than one interpretation, as you agree to here... well then there you have it, you agree!

If anyone wants to care only about the interpretation that everything Tolkien wrote about this matter (everything that can be characterized as a 'late text' anyway) fits because it can be argued that it fits...

... then yes people are free to care only about that specific interpretation

[arathorn]

Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation.
Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote?
And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height(1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!! and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't(in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true).
Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by arathorn

Well calm down Galin, I was just saying that there is another interpretation using other quote that make everything ok. I only said this because you didn't pointed out that there was another possibility and in my previous post I even said that there is more than one interpretation.

Who is not calm? I began with LOL and was only having a bit of fun when running through the factors that we have already been over elsewhere, despite that you 'even said' there is more than one interpretation.

But you also asked why should 'we' care and so I responded to that too.

Now expecting you've calmed down I would like to ask why didn't Christopher ever mentioned that last quote?

You'll have to ask Christopher Tolkien. Do you think there is some meaning in his not publishing it in Unfinished Tales, for example?

And you should realize that the last quote kind of change years of believing about the similarities being given about Numenoreans and Noldor especially about their height (1951-68 or later) and you don't seem to care about that!!

I'm not sure what the point of this statement is.

... and like a Tolkien fan I think it's fine that you point out that there is others interpretations but the first thing you should do is to say the one that fits not the one that doesn't (in your posts you always treats both like contradiction and so I feel in the duty to point that that's not true).

I'm free to post as I like and I happen to think your interpretation is a bit strained (if possible). And I'm not sure I always treat these as contradictions since, IIRC, in some of my posts I use, with purpose, the word necessarily. But anyway in this thread (before you revived it) I basically added the new citations, and noted the ambiguity of dating here -- and only added, by comparison, that the Eldar seem generally taller in Of Dwarves And Men...

… if that brief opinion was too one sided for you or too definitively stated (and I guess it was) -- even though most of the citations concerned are already in the thread for comparison and interpretation -- then do your duty.

Gives me something to post I guess.

Finally I would trust Christopher instead of Hammond any time.

Again I'm not sure what this is intended to mean. Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull have merely published certain descriptions or texts that Chistopher Tolkien never published. Carl Hostetter, Verlyn Flieger, and John Rateliff have done the same, for more examples.

Okay... and?

The new descriptions are still Tolkien-written, if not Tolkien-published. Do you think Wayne Hammond altered the original wording here, or something?

[arathorn]

I'm sorry Galin but since I met you and saw your name in other forums including this you always treated both quotes as contradictory and every-time I see it I just try to persuade otherwise not just because I believe it but because Tolkien has enough and much more contradictory things than this thus we shouldn't over-think things like you do although it has a point that I recognize.
Well Christopher made a book with "Part 2 - Late Writings" , which included Of Dwarves and Men like we already know and for example the part where Fingolfin is stronger than Feanor is dropped to "...Feanor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar", but the simple mention that Fingolfin was strong even in comparison to Feanor in the past, still makes him very strong.
Finally it's always good to argue with you I guess