***Poll of the references of Rúmil and Pengoloð in the Ainulindalë ***

[Aiwendil]

Antoine:

But our project is to write "Translation from the Elvish".
A compilation from Bilbo Baggins, wrote in Imladris of Elder Tales.

I'm forced to disagree with this. You're correct that we're not writing The Silmarillion. But neither, I think, are we writing Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish". That is, our finished text is not meant to literally be the text of Bilbo's books. I was always under the impression, at any rate, that Bilbo's volumes were The Silmarillion, transmitted through Numenor to Rivendell.

If the last version use some reference to some writer or to some discussion, why change ? it s the last choice of Tolkien.

The heart of the problem is, I think, that the last version of the Ainulindale directly contradicts the idea that the legends were transmitted through Bilbo. Bilbo, at any rate, certainly cannot have had a text written by Aelfwine, or even mentioning Aelfwine.

I think it s wrong to think that Ainulindale is not Numenorean.
A myth of creation, without Sun and Moon, and with Lamps is definitively human.

Good point. This is a tricky issue. Never is the Ainulindale ascribed to anyone but Rumil. But certainly if the round world cosmology is true, then it must be Numenorean.

There are really three possible choices with regard to the round world cosmology:

1. A round world Silmarillion. This is explicitly not the goal of this project.

2. A round world cosmology, with the Silmarillion as an incorrect Numenorean version.

3. Flat world cosmology.

So far, we have been ambiguous as to whether we are following 2 or 3. But it seems that following 2 would require the Ainulindale not to have been written by Rumil. On the other hand, 3 was certainly not Tolkien's last idea (either 1 or 2 was).

I think, though, that we can retain the ambiguity between 2 and 3 in either of two ways:

1. Delete any mention of the authorship of the Ainulindale. I am very reluctant to do this, but if it must be done, then it must.

2. Assume that the Ainulindale was originally written by Rumil, but that the Numenorean version is flat earth cosmology.

Now that I think of it, are there really any instances in the Ainulindale that necessitate a flat earth cosmology? There is certainly some confusion, even within the text, as to the exact structure of Ea (note the "innumerable stars" passage). At least on cursory examination, I can find no passages that are unambiguously tied to the flat world version.

If this is the case, then I see no problem in keeping Rumil as the author.

Lindil:

But could not the same be said of Pengolodh himself? He appears because someone has to speak to Aelfwine.

If we keep the speaker because there are no grounds for contradiction with his presence, should not the same standard apply to the location from whence he speaks?

But to whom is he speaking? It seems to me that the only way to keep Pengolodh is to assume that he wrote the material. The only reason he is "speaking" in the original text is that he is instructing Aelfwine, and Aelfwine is recording it. Clearly someone must have recorded it.

Whether he was in Eressea at the time is a separate issue. Here my concern is this: if Pengolodh did not write this until after the War of Wrath and his return to Tol Eressea, how did it come to the Numenoreans? I suppose it could have been brought in the early days of the 2nd age, when contact was still maintained with the Elves. But to me it seems more likely that it was brought by the Edain, along with the rest of their Silmarillion-related lore. I think that eliminating Eressea is the superior choice, because it leaves this ambiguous.

My proposal is, as in the public forum:

This was made by Rúmil of Túna in the Elder Days. {It is here written as it was spoken in Eressëa to Ælfwine by Pengoloð the Sage.} To it are added the further words that Pengoloð {spoke} wrote {at that time} concerning the Valar, the Eldar and the Atani; of which more is said thereafter

I suppose no one is interested in the possibility of doing as CRT did and moving the Pengolodh material to "Of the Beginning of Days"? Such a move would have the virtue, at least, of removing the need to justify Pengolodh's additions.