Orcish Fear - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Saulotus · 10-15-2000, 09:30 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 137</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Orcish Fear

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I deem multi origin theory is right, but with greater part of elves included that it was considered by JRRT himself<hr></blockquote>
See the text for MYTHS TRANSFORMED section IX for the mulit-origin thory with Elves as an orc ingredient (this is an earlier text as it does not have the beast stock); however Tolkien states that many were (at this time of writing; which was later supplanted).

The text related to the last ideas on orcs are tied with QUENDI AND ELDAR, the awakening of men shortly after the great march, and the attacks upon Elves when they awoke of Orcs (who could NOT exist from Elvish stock), and an interesting passage where he ascertains that orcs wewre short lived according to the long lives of the Edain (aka Numenoreans). The last writings on orcs states that neither ELVES nor Dwarves could be reduced to an orkish puppet state. The interesting thing about this essay is the conception that only orcs living DIRECTLY UNDER MORGOTH's POWER AND ATTENTION were reduced to this puppet state.

I think the best answer for the Elvish orc question (and one in accord with the last writings) is taken from ATHRABETH:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien
'Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar; but NOT ONE had ever entered the service or allegiance of Melkor himself, nor ever denied the existence and absolute supremacy of Eru. Some dreadful things of this sort, Finrod guesses, Men must have done, as a<hr></blockquote>

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10-15-2000, 09:30 AM	#11
Saulotus Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 346	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 137</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Orcish Fear <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> I deem multi origin theory is right, but with greater part of elves included that it was considered by JRRT himself<hr></blockquote> See the text for MYTHS TRANSFORMED section IX for the mulit-origin thory with Elves as an orc ingredient (this is an earlier text as it does not have the beast stock); however Tolkien states that many were (at this time of writing; which was later supplanted). The text related to the last ideas on orcs are tied with QUENDI AND ELDAR, the awakening of men shortly after the great march, and the attacks upon Elves when they awoke of Orcs (who could NOT exist from Elvish stock), and an interesting passage where he ascertains that orcs wewre short lived according to the long lives of the Edain (aka Numenoreans). The last writings on orcs states that neither ELVES nor Dwarves could be reduced to an orkish puppet state. The interesting thing about this essay is the conception that only orcs living DIRECTLY UNDER MORGOTH's POWER AND ATTENTION were reduced to this puppet state. I think the best answer for the Elvish orc question (and one in accord with the last writings) is taken from ATHRABETH: <blockquote>Quote:*<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien 'Individual Elves might be seduced to a kind of minor 'Melkorism': desiring to be their own masters in Arda, and to have things their own way, leading in extreme cases to rebellion against the tutelage of the Valar; but NOT ONE had ever entered the service or allegiance of Melkor himself, nor ever denied the existence and absolute supremacy of Eru. Some dreadful things of this sort, Finrod guesses, Men must have done, as a<hr></blockquote> </p>