**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[lindil]

Aiwendil posted

But the Ruin of Doriath devised by Christopher Tolkien is probably his least conservative bit of writing, and the one that he most came to regret after even longer pondering. As Maedhros points out, he states quite clearly in HoMe XI that he regrets the invention of the story.

Yes, I brought up the 'conservative' bit to underscore his general reluctance to invent.

He has also stated his doubts about trying to create a single official 'Silmarillion' at all.

He felt he had to [on both counts], and did, and I do not think any of the proposals so far mentioned [the alterations of the death of Thingol that is, not additions from Wanderings of Hurin and Bolt and Q30].

The fact that he changed his mind does not alter what I consider 3 very important facts;

• CJRT did write a revised, integrative and coherent Ruin of Doriath which around the world in all but the most esoteric Tolkien discussion circles [ such as this one] is THE version. It has gained through collective experience a degree [by no means absolute, I admit] of co-creative reality that I am loath to tamper with unless the end result is equally or better satisfactory.
• Our 'Principles' allow us to consider it for usage.
• He regrets doing it, yes, but has not left any authoritative or workable replacement suggestions. Nor did JRRT obviously - thus our dilemna

So far in every version suggested [I think] there are gaps were we would need to fan-fictionalize to maitain a coherent tale.

I propose we think in terms of additions to the 77 Silm Ruin of Doriath- which may well need to result in a few minor subtractions.

Such as[LIST][*]the additions of The wanderings of Hurin[*]Asgon and co. going to Nargothrond and getting the Nauglamir and some treasure to cast at Thingols feet, [*]like Aiwendil I see a battle with the outlaws as impossibly outdated. [*]I would love to see Melian lift the curse of Mim's treasure from the outlaws, but for the moment I am reluctant to countenance it, till I can read a version that does not have it, and see if I feel it's lack as a real thing, not just an item on a wish-list.[*] I think the idea of Asgon becoming the cource of the material [subbing his name in the Dirhavel/Aelfwine material?] is possible, but has Fan-Fiction liabilities. However JRRT seemed to be clearly heading in that direction as Asgon is the thread that ties Turin's ramapage in Dor-Lomin to Hurin, and he seemed to intent on having the outlaws [of whom Asgon was pre-eminent] go with Hurin to Doriath.

CJRT did a masterful job of turning a sinlge reference to Ents at the destruction of the host of Dwarves into marrative, so, again I say we keep it.
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Ultimately I see this DoD issue [especially Thingol's death] as a question of 2 competing views;
1- do we want to imrove on the 77 and have the best possible [and longest/largest] literary 'Silmarillion'.

Or

2- the most 'pure' 'Silm' using JRRT's older ideas and material over CJRT's even when it is in total chaos.

The Principles and stated member goals seem to allow for both, so we have to choose.

I will [though it is rare for me in general] go for 1 over 2.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]