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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 | |||
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Discussion of my changes with a comparision to Maedhros version in the privat forum:
§30 Since Maedhros used the Sil77 version were the dwarves were driven from Menegroth by force and only a few returned, he used only the first sentences and then took up the Sil 77. His version of the § reads: Quote:
§32 I liked Meadhros new idea to insert here the asking for aid in Belegost, but I found his way to insert it awakward his § reads: Quote:
§33 Here I tokeup Meadhros idea of the denied aid form Belegost. Since Meadhros had already done so in §32 he did not make the additions from Sil77 and UT. He also toke out Narthseg which I would like to hold. His treachery is now only the time of the hunt, but that is an essential infrmation for Naugladur. $34 I only toke out the sign to the Indrafagns. While Maedhros but the part of the knowledge of Naugladur of that hunt on the end of §33. §35 I don't understand why Meadhros toke out only half of the §. If Mablung was out in the forest he could come to Thingol with wild grown hair. But as I precived Mablung he was often in Menegroth and that he would participat in memorial hunt is quite natural. So I take the § out. §36 & §37a Meadhros § reads: Quote:
§37b - §42 Meadhros toke Melian as the Messanger for Beren and Lúthien. But when she would be smart enough to tell Beren the story so that he could revenge Thingol, why would she lift the girdle? I think she must leave Middle-Earth at once when Thingol is dead. For me that is what the note in The Tale of the Years means. §37b & §37c I let the talk to the Elven maid Nielthi stand and I even used she later as the one Melian would tell to seek Beren and Luthien. Since Mablung is killed beside the king. §38 I toke the tale of the invasion from the Sil77 and fitted it in here. §39 Melian is already gone in my version of this §. §40 As above, so the § is much shorter and only takes up the laughter of Naugladur from further below. §41 & §42 Since Melian is gone nothing is left in Version of these §§. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).
We have three groups of changes: RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text. RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text. I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered. As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly. Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood. Quote:
Findegil |
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#3 | |||||
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The Kinslayer
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I would add the following parragraph between 34 and 36: Quote:
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The part that is in bold to me it is weird. On another note, I think that it is interesting the way you attributed the deeds of Ufedhin to the dwarves. I wonder if Aiwendil will be ok with that. I am.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#4 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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§33 kin -> following: kin of Morogth in the old concept of Orcs called "children of Morogth" is acceptable, nut know I find it very odd, after eben Gothmog as his son was scipt. Maybe my understanding of "kin" is to limited.
§35 I thought about that myself, and if we will include it, I would also retain the "wild growth of his hair" since it would so nicely backflash to Túrin and Saeros and I can't see a problem when a warrior returns from the border fight that he is uncempt and thereby unrecognisable - but as yet we have meet Mablung in Doriath ever at Menegroth. He was the cheife thane of Thingol and not the head of the border forces (that was Beleg as long as he lived). So in my view it was dubious if we would not introduce a change in the role of Mablung, coming back to the king (obviously from the broder fights in the circumstances of the later Doriath). But I might be overinterpreting in this. And I am open for the addition, if you and Aiwendil think it is okay. §37a these hunt -> the hunt: I wanted to make the back reference that it is more clear. But when when you find it odd, we can as well takt "the". §37b the name Nielthi: I am fare from an expert in Sindarin, I do not even no the basics, so I don't know. If the name is not use able it is easy to make her an anonymous maiden of Melian. §37b Melians comment on the unwoven web: Since we have taken Q30 as a basis here, we have the girdle removed while Melian is in Menegroth. I considered taht sentence for delition, but I could find no reason why Melian would not answer in such a pictures way when forbonding was heavy on her. But the "rat that gnaws the threads" does hint at the treacherous elfs of TN, therefore the change. You yourself suggested, that she lost control over the girdle because here conection to it was through Thingol, thus I found the "riven thread" a fitting replacment. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 | ||
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The Kinslayer
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Quote:
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__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#6 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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As promised in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** I will provide the Death of Thingol as it could be without Mablung and with the note taken into account. §35 as suggested by Maédhros above must be left out also:
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Findegil |
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#7 | ||||||||||||||||||
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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RD-EX-49: Nauglath > Naugrim again.
RD-EX-51 Quote:
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RD-SL-20 I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached. I'm just slightly perplexed here: Quote:
RD-SL-18 Quote:
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RD-EX-55 The "did" for past tense here sounds a bit awkward to me (and this is an editorial addition if I read it right). I would rather say: Quote:
Same thing here. Quote:
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I don't understand the addition of "at that time". Quote:
The addition from TY is, of course, awkward. The phrase "somehow it must be contrived" was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and it's straightforward replacement "somehow they contrived it" is no better. But I suppose any emendation would have to be called stylistic. Nevertheless, I would in at least this particular case prefer a minor fix, like: Quote:
RD-EX-60 Quote:
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This long addition from QS77: does it have a source? If so, I'd rather follow the source than the '77. If not, I don't see any need to use all this text of CRT's invention here. We could, in fact cut straight from "Even at that word" to "Thingol lay dead", so: Quote:
Again - wouldn't it be preferrable to use Q here rather than the '77? We shouldn't use CRT's text simply because we prefer it or because it's more vivid. RD-EX-63 Quote:
Also, another Nauglath > Naugrim here. §40b (§25) Quote:
Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity. The names "Naugladur", "Bodruith", and "Nielthi" all need thought ("Fangluin" is another old name, but I think it works fine in later Sindarin). I will research the latter two when I get a chance. "Naugladur" is interesting. If it is to be fit into later Sindarin it surely must mean "Dwarf-servant". One could suppose that it was a later name used anachronistically here, given because he entered into the service of Thingol (if only through his craftsmen). But all other "-dur" names I can think of denote friendship or service to the first element in the name. "Isildur" means "servant of the Moon", not "a Moon that is also a servant". So "Naugladur" ought to mean "servant of the Dwarves" - a very curious name for the lord of Belegost. But that may be irrelevant. It's hard to see how the name fits, but unless some other etymology exists in Gnomish (and not in Sindarin), this is Tolkien's problem, not ours. Last edited by Aiwendil; 01-06-2005 at 10:23 AM. |
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