Sure is quiet down here......... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mithadan*** · 08-03-2000, 06:56 AM

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Hello. Hmmmmm. All I hear are echos and the cobwebs are getting rather thick. The response to this undertaking has been less than encouraging. Is anything happening that I don't know about? There was some discussion on Fingolfin's site critical of the Silm. and HoME over several threads which appears to be reaching (or has reached) a consensus that no other author should dabble with the Silm. and suggesting that creation of a "canon" would be inappropriate because: (1) it would not neccessarily reflect JRRT's real intentions; and (2) it would limit discussion of issues ("we decided this issue already, see our canon&quot

.

At the risk of being viewed as defeatist, I think that the question of whether a canon is desirable or even an obtainable goal should be discussed. Maybe the issues that a "canon" might resolve should be posted on the main board with interesting threads placed in a special archive of topics. Or maybe not.

I kind of like the idea of an archive of substantive topics. A real problem I have with some other boards is that there is so much fluff to wade through before you reach anything interesting. Other boards are also being dominated by movie discussions (how can you criticize a movie that hasn't even come out yet - I like the separate movie board at the Downs - that way I don't have to deal with movie posts[I know others feel differently but I guess thats what the separate board is for]). Maybe a "Hall of Fame" for the best and most interesting threads is a better approach. Views (I'm not wearing armour so no arrows please)?

</p>

**lindil** · 08-03-2000, 08:37 AM

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Re: Sure is quiet down here.........

It has been really quiet. I forced myself [ and found it enjoyable research] to weigh in on the Gil-Galad thread and put a little Ainulindale thing up just because the silence was a bit unsettling.
A little of it may have to do with the unusual division of the sub/sections, as they were expanded a couple of times in rapid sucsession.

I mainly attribute it to human nature that it is easier to post endless follow ups on an endless array of topics than to hunker down and immerse oneself in tedium/ or even a non-tedious long project.
{ I speak from a deep wealth of knowledge and experience <img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> }
I threrefore prpose the topic : do the Silmarillion Balrogs have Wings which they lost at the drowning of Beleriand? <img src=smile.gif ALT="

"> <img src=smile.gif ALT="

">

</p>

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 08-03-2000, 08:51 AM

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Re: Sure is quiet down here.........

Sorry I've been so quiet. I've been working on the encyclopedia and not been able to properly research the subject of the Council. I haven't found a copy of morgoth's Ring yet, so I may end up ordering it. Keep plugging away at the project...it'll pick up speed some day.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

**lindil** · 08-03-2000, 07:53 PM

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Re: Sure is quiet down here.........

Mithadan -or anyone in the know :where is fingolfin's board?
I would love to see where how they came to such conclusions.
My recent readings of Morgoth'sRing ,11 & 12 and the 1977 Silmarillion
only reinforce my feeling that we have in the 77 Silm. a synopsis as much[ well ,I really think more than] as a canon .
anyway I doubt if any one person other than CRRT - will tackle it solo.

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 08-03-2000, 09:02 PM

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Re: Sure is quiet down here.........

I believe it is www.fingolfin.com. Use the "lite" version, its a slow loader (and a slow, as in not very active, board). Sorry Chief Barrow Wight, but he asked. Definitely not a plug, I like it here much better.

The posts I referred to are spread over 2 or 3 threads. Their focus was not upon "canon" specifically, though at least one person used the term. Having also read HoME 10-12, I understand your position and have similar sympathies myself. However, this is a major undertaking and without sufficient support we may be better off posting on the books board. We need to generate some interest. Consider that some visitors may not be scrolling down to look at the bottom of the boards page. If we go back up to the main board, a few more people may jump on the bandwagon. At the very least, this would allow us to get a better view of public opinion, pro or con.

Another option would be to incorporate some or all of this project into the encyclopedia.

BTW - I agree that The Silm. as published is little more than a synopsis. I posted that very sentiment on MM's board months ago, shortly after reading JRRT's letter to Unwin where he estimated that the Silm. "was" longer than LoTR. There is much to fill in/reconcile/expand.

</p>

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 08-04-2000, 05:48 AM

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OT: no problem ....

Mithadan, answering a question like that is perfectly cool. As you said, it was not a plug. Yesterday people were using the board as an advertising platform and I was trying to minimize that by my posts (which you obviously saw). Your post was completely appropriate,

Thanks

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

**lindil** · 08-04-2000, 08:25 AM

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Re:back to the books ?

I must admit that I have had mithadan's very same thoughts re: board placement and having to scroll down[I didn't for weeks] attendence/participation does seem to have dropped.and aI must confess seeing a column for views along w/ responses was nice-let you know if people wereeven looking[although though that is a minor point]
maybe it could be a subsection under books so you click on books and get your choice of LOtr/hobbit and silm/canon.
not all silm entries would have to do w/ the canon but some will have a tie in and it would hopefully pull others in a bit that otherwise might sit it out.
and if if you like that idea...how about the wee bittest mention of the Silm. question on your 25 hobbits banner [that is how I got here and I would have done it double quick if I had heard about such a thing]

also thanks for the address. I must confess I like things here more than anywhere else I have been also {the chief seems always to have beat me there !} more content per page of threads.

</p>

Taimar · 08-06-2000, 12:27 AM

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Re: Re:back to the books ?

I think people are daunted by the size of the task. JRRT worked on the Silmarillion (in various forms) from 1917 until his death and he never managed to achieve a definitive version so some may ask, what chance do we have?

JRRT told his publisher that the Silmarillion would be longer than LOTR, and I wish that he had been able to produce such a work himself. I am beginning to doubt whether it is wise that we should attempt it.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

**lindil** · 08-06-2000, 04:45 PM

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Re: Re:back to the books ?

Well in some respects our goal might be considered easier in that we - unlike Tolkien have a fixed amount of material to work with .
But I also think my 'revised ' Silmarillion would be a relatively straightforward affair.
It is when you get to the new cocmology that it gets tricky.
but last I checked I had no feedback on those posts so maybe that idea is DOA.

</p>

08-03-2000, 06:56 AM	#1
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	Sure is quiet down here......... <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Hello. Hmmmmm. All I hear are echos and the cobwebs are getting rather thick. The response to this undertaking has been less than encouraging. Is anything happening that I don't know about? There was some discussion on Fingolfin's site critical of the Silm. and HoME over several threads which appears to be reaching (or has reached) a consensus that no other author should dabble with the Silm. and suggesting that creation of a "canon" would be inappropriate because: (1) it would not neccessarily reflect JRRT's real intentions; and (2) it would limit discussion of issues ("we decided this issue already, see our canon&quot. At the risk of being viewed as defeatist, I think that the question of whether a canon is desirable or even an obtainable goal should be discussed. Maybe the issues that a "canon" might resolve should be posted on the main board with interesting threads placed in a special archive of topics. Or maybe not. I kind of like the idea of an archive of substantive topics. A real problem I have with some other boards is that there is so much fluff to wade through before you reach anything interesting. Other boards are also being dominated by movie discussions (how can you criticize a movie that hasn't even come out yet - I like the separate movie board at the Downs - that way I don't have to deal with movie posts[I know others feel differently but I guess thats what the separate board is for]). Maybe a "Hall of Fame" for the best and most interesting threads is a better approach. Views (I'm not wearing armour so no arrows please)? </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

08-03-2000, 08:37 AM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sure is quiet down here......... It has been really quiet. I forced myself [ and found it enjoyable research] to weigh in on the Gil-Galad thread and put a little Ainulindale thing up just because the silence was a bit unsettling. A little of it may have to do with the unusual division of the sub/sections, as they were expanded a couple of times in rapid sucsession. I mainly attribute it to human nature that it is easier to post endless follow ups on an endless array of topics than to hunker down and immerse oneself in tedium/ or even a non-tedious long project. { I speak from a deep wealth of knowledge and experience <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> } I threrefore prpose the topic : do the Silmarillion Balrogs have Wings which they lost at the drowning of Beleriand? <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-03-2000, 08:51 AM	#3
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sure is quiet down here......... Sorry I've been so quiet. I've been working on the encyclopedia and not been able to properly research the subject of the Council. I haven't found a copy of morgoth's Ring yet, so I may end up ordering it. Keep plugging away at the project...it'll pick up speed some day. The Barrow-Wight (RKittle) <font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p> __________________ The Barrow-Wight

08-03-2000, 07:53 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sure is quiet down here......... Mithadan -or anyone in the know :where is fingolfin's board? I would love to see where how they came to such conclusions. My recent readings of Morgoth'sRing ,11 & 12 and the 1977 Silmarillion only reinforce my feeling that we have in the 77 Silm. a synopsis as much[ well ,I really think more than] as a canon . anyway I doubt if any one person other than CRRT - will tackle it solo. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-03-2000, 09:02 PM	#5
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sure is quiet down here......... I believe it is www.fingolfin.com. Use the "lite" version, its a slow loader (and a slow, as in not very active, board). Sorry Chief Barrow Wight, but he asked. Definitely not a plug, I like it here much better. The posts I referred to are spread over 2 or 3 threads. Their focus was not upon "canon" specifically, though at least one person used the term. Having also read HoME 10-12, I understand your position and have similar sympathies myself. However, this is a major undertaking and without sufficient support we may be better off posting on the books board. We need to generate some interest. Consider that some visitors may not be scrolling down to look at the bottom of the boards page. If we go back up to the main board, a few more people may jump on the bandwagon. At the very least, this would allow us to get a better view of public opinion, pro or con. Another option would be to incorporate some or all of this project into the encyclopedia. BTW - I agree that The Silm. as published is little more than a synopsis. I posted that very sentiment on MM's board months ago, shortly after reading JRRT's letter to Unwin where he estimated that the Silm. "was" longer than LoTR. There is much to fill in/reconcile/expand. </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

08-04-2000, 05:48 AM	#6
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> OT: no problem .... Mithadan, answering a question like that is perfectly cool. As you said, it was not a plug. Yesterday people were using the board as an advertising platform and I was trying to minimize that by my posts (which you obviously saw). Your post was completely appropriate, Thanks The Barrow-Wight (RKittle) <font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p> __________________ The Barrow-Wight

08-04-2000, 08:25 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re:back to the books ? I must admit that I have had mithadan's very same thoughts re: board placement and having to scroll down[I didn't for weeks] attendence/participation does seem to have dropped.and aI must confess seeing a column for views along w/ responses was nice-let you know if people wereeven looking[although though that is a minor point] maybe it could be a subsection under books so you click on books and get your choice of LOtr/hobbit and silm/canon. not all silm entries would have to do w/ the canon but some will have a tie in and it would hopefully pull others in a bit that otherwise might sit it out. and if if you like that idea...how about the wee bittest mention of the Silm. question on your 25 hobbits banner [that is how I got here and I would have done it double quick if I had heard about such a thing] also thanks for the address. I must confess I like things here more than anywhere else I have been also {the chief seems always to have beat me there !} more content per page of threads. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

08-06-2000, 12:27 AM	#8
Taimar Spirit of the Downfallen West Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 360	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re:back to the books ? I think people are daunted by the size of the task. JRRT worked on the Silmarillion (in various forms) from 1917 until his death and he never managed to achieve a definitive version so some may ask, what chance do we have? JRRT told his publisher that the Silmarillion would be longer than LOTR, and I wish that he had been able to produce such a work himself. I am beginning to doubt whether it is wise that we should attempt it. Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

08-06-2000, 04:45 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re:back to the books ? Well in some respects our goal might be considered easier in that we - unlike Tolkien have a fixed amount of material to work with . But I also think my 'revised ' Silmarillion would be a relatively straightforward affair. It is when you get to the new cocmology that it gets tricky. but last I checked I had no feedback on those posts so maybe that idea is DOA. </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.