gandalf and sarumon

[Serevian The Ranger]

which one was stronger

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Serevian The Ranger ]

[Sharkû]

Saruman, it clearly says so. Gandalf the White, however, has a higher authority and is presumably mightier than Saruman the many-coloured.

[obloquy]

I disagree with you, Sharku, and later I intend to prove that it was Gandalf who was greater from the beginning. But I have to go be a guest tonight, so it will have to wait. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

Before you can jump on me, oblo, let me just add that I kept it intentionally concise. In a way, Olórin was undoubtedly stronger. On the other hand, I doubt 'stronger' would be the correct term at all. Curumo was chosen as the leader of the Istari, and for a while he could use his power according to that order.
I also think we already had a thread on the powers and restrictions of Gandalf in particular.

However, I really wonder to what extent that answers, or, as is more likely, over-answers the initial question here.

[obloquy]

Mmm, I gotcha Sharkey. I either missed the Gandalf discussion or it was before my time here. You're probably familiar with my arguments, so I won't bother. I also can't seem to find several of the quotes I intended to use. :P

[Mister Underhill]

obloquy, you’re probably thinking of stuff like this from UT:

But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange "good fortune" that went with Gandalf.

Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

These quotes served as part of the foundation of my erstwhile Gandalf=Manwë theory.

[obloquy]

Yes, those Mr. U, and this one:Unfinished Tales

To the overthrow of Morgoth he [Manwë] sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

I believe this quote comes right after Tolkien introduces the Manwë possibility.

This one speaks to Gandalf's humility (which also explains the 'I fear Sauron' dialogue):The Silmarillion

Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons.

Here's another interesting one from Letters:

Gandalf alone [of the Istari] fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

This tells us that Gandalf had made himself wholly subject to the rules of the Istari, and would not break them even if it meant the failure of his mission. This explains why, before Gandalf meets with Eru (at which time Gandalf (or more accurately, Olórin) may not actually have been enhanced in native power, but rather allowed to use openly more (or all, if you consider that Saruman was probably no longer observing any of the guidelines for the Istari) of his inherent Maia power), Saruman was able to bully Gandalf, the greatest of the order. Saruman knew Gandalf was the greatest, but he also knew he was subject -- slave -- to the rules of the order and mission.

The quote above also implies that Gandalf's nature was greater than that of the Balrog of Moria.

[Mister Underhill]

Aha! You are a wise one indeed! I've made much the same argument in various other threads -- that the "limitations" imposed on the Istari were of a moral/ethical nature, not a physical limitation of the amount of power they were able to display.

[Luineglin]

i agree with oblo and mister underhill both are good arguments but u cannot forget that each had their "specialties" sarumans was working with his hands were gandalfs was with fire and explosions and fireworks but when it comes to over all it is mithandir

..I must add that in one account of the origin of the Istari...not sure which book it's in...pretty sure it's UT...

...the Vala (i'm tired and can't rightley remember what they are called) see the Sarumans Ring thread to find out why) are gathering the Istari, Saruman is of Aules people and Aule wanted to make him chief of the Istari but Manwe selected Olorion to go, and Allatar was also selected, and after it was stated that Olorion would be the third ( for he was selected last) Manwe's wife said " no not third ", it is said that this did not escape the notice of Saruman...


... this statement could be seen as stating that Olorion deserved a better placing in the Istari than third...

...thats if you take the numbering of Istari to be a description of there power...

Does anyone else find it interesting that both Sauron and Saruman are Maiar of Aule???

[Fenrir]

Yes, rather odd isn't it? Especially since Aule tried to make the dwarves without Eru knowing.

[Fenrir]

Yes, rather odd isn't it? Especially since Aule tried to make the dwarves without Eru knowing.

[O'Boile]

Some good ideas listed on these posts...
I think it is said somewhere that Saruman was a being of higher rank in Valinor (I forget the spelling) than Gandalf... but I would certainly agree that Gandalf was the greater of the two when you count his wisdom and his determination.

I have a question that I can't find the answer too, and all of you seem quite knowledgeable: how did Gandalf get his staff back from Sauruman after Gwaihir rescued him from Isengard? Does any one know or did Tolkien simply leave it up to us to decide?

If anyone knows the answer to the above question, e-mail me @ childofgod125@juno.com
Thanks!!

[Morima]

I tend to think that Gandalf is (far) wiser than Saruman, but Saruman is the brilliant one. And he knows most (that is, about Sauron). Surely also because they both are maiar of Aulë, as someone noted.

[Melkor the Morgoth]

Gandalf had more than one staff

[Keeper of the Feet of Melkor]

Sarumon
Although Gandalf was the wiser...

[bombur]

I think you too might like to see the rather longish post I just sent to the Sarumans ring ( /staffs) thread.

I think it is not so much about the innate power when it comes to maiar. It is about the sources of power. The istari were allowed to use only certain powers that were different from what they used in Valinor. And most of all they were only allowed to tap their own personal power, and not to try and become more. The most revealing fallen/failed istari is Radagast. He had perhaps become something akin to Tom Bombadil, or was on his way of becoming that. Saruman was on his way of becoming what Sauron was. I would not be surprised if one of the blue wizards had been on his way of becoming something akin to balrog.

That was the temptation that Istari (and all Maiar) faced on coming to the mortal lands. Power was available... personal power indipendent of the will off the valar... but that was not why the Istari had come after all, was it. To become beings like Sauron or Tom Bombadil.

Perhaps this goes to say something of the habit of the maiar serving Aule to fall. Their ambitions and desires were less of... errrm "symbiotic" in nature (or with the nature), then the desires and ambitions of say maiar serving yawanna. Their fall perhaps was flashier. Radagast and Bombadil were in sense also fallen maiar. They just fell from the grace of valar in a way that did not threaten anyone else, losing their purpose, becoming somewhat benevolent nature spirits in middle earth.


Janne Harju

[Morima]

Whoops, bumping this thread up. That was a good answer, Bombur. Only a little note: Tolkien himself stated that Tom Bombadil was one of Middle-Earths mysteries. No one knew what he really was. I don't mean to correct you really, cause perhaps he really was a Maia. But he could also have been a Vala, for example. Someone even thinks that he was Eru himself...

[Legolas]

Morima:

Tolkien, Letter No. 181:

There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.

Go to "Bombadil = yearning?" to read more. Tom was just Tom. Nothing else. Tolkien said he was an enigma. You can, of course, continue such discussion there, and I'll give you some more quotes, if you're interested.

The only reason I post here is that Tolkien specifically said Eru never inhabited Arda. He stayed outside of his creation.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

The most revealing fallen/failed istari is Radagast.

I have never seen Radagast referred to as failed or fallen, probably because I’m relatively new to the Downs. How is Radagast a failed Istari?

Also, the part about the Blue Istari becoming a Balrog…never heard that one before either. Could you expand on how you came to that?

I have an idea about why Saruman may have started out “greater” and ended up “lesser” than Gandalf:

Morgoth’s power was diminished by his envy and hatred. Saruman, from the time the Istari were appointed, had envy toward Gandalf, which turned to hatred. Couldn’t his power been reduced over time by his envy and hate like Morgoth’s was, to the point of becoming less than Gandalf’s?

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[WarBringer]

I think this is unanswerable, unless sarumon and gandalf had a contest of power or directly fought each other

[Morima]

Thanks, Legalos :-). I read that on the Encyclopædia of Arda. Never knew about that quote.

WarBringer, I agree with you. That's another of Middle-Earths mysteries, it seems. But I don't think the theory holds, Keneldil, although it seems to. Cause the reason why Morgoths hatred made his power diminish, was that he messed up his own sake by being to hasty about it. He wanted to destroy the people he hated, and that quickly.

But wait, I remember something Treebeard said about Saruman, about this: "He was always hasty. That was his ruin." Seems like Saruman at least had that in common with Morgoth. And it seems like you're right after all, Keneldil. But still, that shouldn't have anything to do with Gandalf, cause even though Saruman doesn't like Gandalf, he is cautious from showing it (until he imprisons him, of course :-).

I have given the other wizars some thought. Cause I think I've read that the only Istar who did NOT fail, was Gandalf (he was the only Istar who was ALLOWED to return to Aman). Every other Istar was sent to Middle-Earth in order to destroy Sauron, but they became fascinated of Middle-Earth and did not care about Sauron, except from Saruman, who eventually joined him instead.

So I can believe that Saruman was rejected from returning home, but I think the Valar are strict about the other three! Maybe it is because the didn't really want to. After all, we never hear anything else from them.

[Legolas]

All the Istari failed with the exception of Gandalf. From Unfinished Tales:

Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures.

On the identity of the 'lastc-omer' mentioned above:

But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim

On a different note, the idea of the blue wizards becoming balrogs is absurd.

Gandalf was greater than Saruman from the start. He was greater, is greater, and will always be greater.

See Underhill's quote from Unfinished Tales above:

Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

And don't miss obloquy's thread: The Powers of the Istari. It soundly explains it all.

(http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001982)

[ November 22, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]