Who/What was Tom Bombadil - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 01-11-2002, 04:50 AM

"Bombadil disappears? That's not in my book. Is this in the new revised edition?"

(Bows head in shame)
Err...it's been a while since I last read it. This would be the "Abridged by my terrible memory" version. In my defence, I am currently reading LoTR again, and the Silmarillion is next on the "must re-read" list.

Sorry.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]

01-11-2002, 05:28 PM

lol, i cant believe my post kept this alive. although i think that my theory is better than all the rest, because it gives an answer to the most agrivating question in the book. who Tom really is? no one knows, accept for a stupid doll that his kids played with. Christofer Tolkien, i have one up on u now [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] anyway, this post should be continue for forever, because its proven to be a haven for answers to a great question. "who or wat is Tom Bombadil?"

mordor136 · 01-12-2002, 07:06 PM

If I may skip way back and comment on orc999's post. he skipped fotr. I dont know why he was even in that disscusion. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Zippo · 01-13-2002, 10:14 PM

Yes his posts were quite irrelevant....read the books....Bombadil with a ring...Eh!

Nazgûl · 01-14-2002, 06:20 PM

If mordor136 was smart enouph to start making fun of orc999 said he would realise that he should study in math semenar so orc would be able to stop making fun of him after each test [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Nazgûl · 01-14-2002, 06:24 PM

i meant of what orc999said [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

01-15-2002, 06:04 AM

I don't agree with the theory that Tom was a Maiar like Gandalf. If that were true,he would not have been able to handle the one ring without it having an evil effect on him...the reason why Gandalf will not touch it. He is also not an Elf,as the ring probably would have sunk its "claws" into him and he would not want to return it to Frodo.

Tom although an enigma...must be some sort of supernatural being who is more powerful than Sauron,and the Maiar since the ring has no effect on him. He also laughs at it as if its pathetic!

I originally though he may be an incarnation Eru(in disguise so to speak). But if Tolkien said in his letters Eru never walked on Middle Earth,than that can't be so. I guess he'll always be an enigma...although we can at least deduce that he is very powerful,and probably supernatural in origin like the Maiar,although more powerful or at least less corruptible.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-15-2002, 08:29 AM

"more powerful than Sauron"...hmm...that depends on classification of "power". If power is an ability to remain untouched by desire, then yes-but earth-shattering power etc. I'm not so sure.
Is immunity power??!!???!!!

Mankáno · 01-31-2002, 12:32 PM

I don't think Tolkien wanted to explain, or decide who Tom was, he was an enigma and the only explanation is in Tom's own word to Frodo.

Something significant is that Tom said he was there (in Middle Earth) before the Dark Lord came from outside, I think he was referring to Morgoth, not Sauron, as he also said he was there before the elves went to the west.

Now, if we try to find an explanation in the books, or in Tolkien's letters or notes, we won't find any, but in the general context, it seems to me he was a maia.
We know the maiar were spirits, and there many of them, some were very powerful like Eonwe or Arien, and some were less powerful.

Of all the creatures defined in the Tolkien's books, Tom would only fit in the maiar category IMO. But that's only speculation of course

Dwarin Thunderhammer · 01-31-2002, 01:32 PM

Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Legolas · 01-31-2002, 04:18 PM

Please refer to the Encyclopedia of Arda...offers the most complete examination of evidence. Tom was an entity..

River Jordan · 02-01-2002, 01:37 AM

Thunderhammer said:
Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits?

He's ALMOST right! Just a little typo there - Tom Bombadil is ELVEN! Yes, it's true, the mystery is solved - he is most definitely an elf! (If not, then at the very least a good elf-friend - he's very elf-like!)

- your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River*

Carannillion · 02-04-2002, 05:33 PM

I've also seen somewhere that Tom (and Goldberry) is listed as a Maia. Yet, I think I'll stick to the Great Enigma thing.

Mankáno said:

Quote:

Something significant is that Tom said he was there (in Middle Earth) before the Dark Lord came from outside, I think he was referring to Morgoth, not Sauron, as he also said he was there before the elves went to the west.

If he was there before Morgoth, then we truly have an enigma on our hands, because Morgoth - Melkor, as was his real name - was of the first Ainur who entered Arda; he participated in the shaping of Arda (or misshaping, if you like; destroying what the other Valar forged and built). So, if Tom was there before everyone else, I'd go for The Flame Imperishable Incarnate, or Ilúvatar's 'extended arm'. But I'm not convinced of any of these theories.

*still clinging on to Tom=Enigma*

Luineglin · 02-04-2002, 05:39 PM

when will this topic end ive been gone for a moth and it is still going why wont u die

ArwenBaggins · 02-04-2002, 06:54 PM

I agree with *river* and all the other people who think Tom is an Elf. But why dont you ask Tolkien himself! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] yeah right! Like we're going 2 ask a 110 year old corpse! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eowyn of Ithilien · 02-05-2002, 05:59 AM

lol it doesn't die coz you can express a "sensible" opinion without fear of being proven wrong
and arguing's just plain fun [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Lush · 02-07-2002, 09:07 PM

A friend of mine said this:
"Tom Bombadil is the coolest character in the LotR because he's just a sweet ancient crackhead with a pretty girlfriend."
Suits me.
Now, at the Council of Elrond, does Gandalf not talk about Tom Bombadil? Does he not say talk about the fact that Tom is "his own master", and he will be a "most unsafe guardian" for the Ring because he will forget all about it? I thought this was interesting.
Gandalf also mentions the fact that in the end, if the Dark Lord is given free reign, Tom Bombadil will fall, "Last as he was First."
No less confusing, but very curious.

12-12-2002, 02:04 AM

I think Tom Bombadil was a manifestation of Eru (Iluvatar). When Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin are invited to have a meal with Tom and Goldberry, Frodo asks her, "Who is Tom Bombadil?". She answers, "He is". This is exactly what 'Eru' means and so I think this is a hint to the origin of Tom Bombadil.

the witch king · 12-12-2002, 08:49 AM

i see him as some kind of earth spirit, i think he was created as a part of arda unlike the valar etc who reside there in.

bombur · 12-12-2002, 08:52 AM

I must disagree with Paladin. The fact that the ring does not affect Tom proves nothing. If Tom is Maiar, he like Sauron needs not become invisible. And the lust for the ring is not lust for the ring itself merely. The ring corrupts moreso by the power it gives, then in itself. Gandalf clearly states the REASONS why he dares not touch it. He is not without (benevolent) ambitions. Being so concretically and lucratively offerred power to fulfill them, he fears he might not be able to resist temptation. This correlation exists through the book. Smeagol succumbs to the ring, while Deagol does not seem to. Smeagol lusts for power. Bilbo and Frodo are to a great degree unnaffected. They, like most hobbits, desire little pleasures of life. Sam seems totally unnaffected. He is kind and brave, but lets face it. Sam is simpleton not desiring anything beyond fullfilling ones duty, being loyal to ones friends, seeing wonderful things and tending a garden. Boromir succumbs. He desires power. Power in war, power to rule, fame as a savior and hero.

Lust for the ring is in great part lust for power.

Tom has no desires. He is. Other beings might have as well been safe from the lust for ring. Radagast "the simpleton", "the bird tamer" might have been one. Galadriel was able to resist the temptation. The ring was not magically beaconing to her. She was tempted by power, but she decided to "diminish, go to west and remain Galadriel." Most likely the only human who could have safely handled the ring would have been the master of the prancing pony.

Immunity to the lust for the ring does not arise from power, but rather from being content to things and oneself "as are." Being happy and simple qualifies. Being powerful enough to be exactly what one wants qualifies as well. So does having found/accepted ones place and lot in life.

***

I think Tom was Maiar as are all the "ancient" spirits/beings in LOTR. I mean including treebeard and the great eagles. I'll dig out my silmarillion and LOTR and check, if I can back this consept with exact quotes. However I see it like this. In the begining there was already a great amount of "spirits" some of them participating in the song with eru, some not. Theese spirits were of varying degrees of power (...and perchance - age). Mightiest among them being Melkor.

Then when arda was created, many decended there. Some of the more powerful became valar. Many clad themselves like the valar and became the maiar serving them. Some took residence among the kelvar and olvar or something (I think this is said in the discussion between Yawanna and Eru.) This is the origin of the eagles and ents. The eagles and ents living in the end of the 3rd age are either decendants of maiar and mortal animal/plant, or maiar who have lived in mortal body long enough to forget almost all of what they were. Some of them did not go to live with valar, but rather to live with the land, so to say. One of theese spirits/maiar is Tom. Or maybe he is not exactly maiar... if maiar means one of the servants of valar. But I think Tom is definately of the same stock as were maiar, valar, dragons, werewolves and the first ents and eagles.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

the phantom · 12-12-2002, 09:42 AM

Hey, I don't know if you've seen this thread or not, but if you haven't you definitely should.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001272

01-11-2002, 04:50 AM	#41
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	"Bombadil disappears? That's not in my book. Is this in the new revised edition?" (Bows head in shame) Err...it's been a while since I last read it. This would be the "Abridged by my terrible memory" version. In my defence, I am currently reading LoTR again, and the Silmarillion is next on the "must re-read" list. Sorry. [ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ] __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

01-12-2002, 07:06 PM	#43
mordor136 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: snowboarding with Morgoth in the void Posts: 221	If I may skip way back and comment on orc999's post. he skipped fotr. I dont know why he was even in that disscusion. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ It's not A.D.D I'm just ignoring you. I'm like a super-hero with no powers or motivation

01-13-2002, 10:14 PM	#44
Zippo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: I live in...well I live every where! HAHAHA! Posts: 49	Yes his posts were quite irrelevant....read the books....Bombadil with a ring...Eh! __________________ I am Saki The Conqueror, Ruler of the east and the west and ALL That is In between!

01-14-2002, 06:20 PM	#45
Nazgûl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In the deep wilderness Posts: 18	If mordor136 was smart enouph to start making fun of orc999 said he would realise that he should study in math semenar so orc would be able to stop making fun of him after each test [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Darkness will fall over this wretched world. And this time none will stop us!

01-14-2002, 06:24 PM	#46
Nazgûl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In the deep wilderness Posts: 18	i meant of what orc999said [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] __________________ Darkness will fall over this wretched world. And this time none will stop us!

01-11-2002, 05:28 PM	#42
sk8er74t Guest Posts: n/a	lol, i cant believe my post kept this alive. although i think that my theory is better than all the rest, because it gives an answer to the most agrivating question in the book. who Tom really is? no one knows, accept for a stupid doll that his kids played with. Christofer Tolkien, i have one up on u now [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] anyway, this post should be continue for forever, because its proven to be a haven for answers to a great question. "who or wat is Tom Bombadil?"

01-15-2002, 06:04 AM	#47
Paladin Guest Posts: n/a	I don't agree with the theory that Tom was a Maiar like Gandalf. If that were true,he would not have been able to handle the one ring without it having an evil effect on him...the reason why Gandalf will not touch it. He is also not an Elf,as the ring probably would have sunk its "claws" into him and he would not want to return it to Frodo. Tom although an enigma...must be some sort of supernatural being who is more powerful than Sauron,and the Maiar since the ring has no effect on him. He also laughs at it as if its pathetic! I originally though he may be an incarnation Eru(in disguise so to speak). But if Tolkien said in his letters Eru never walked on Middle Earth,than that can't be so. I guess he'll always be an enigma...although we can at least deduce that he is very powerful,and probably supernatural in origin like the Maiar,although more powerful or at least less corruptible.

01-15-2002, 08:29 AM	#48
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	"more powerful than Sauron"...hmm...that depends on classification of "power". If power is an ability to remain untouched by desire, then yes-but earth-shattering power etc. I'm not so sure. Is immunity power??!!???!!! __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

01-31-2002, 12:32 PM	#49
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	I don't think Tolkien wanted to explain, or decide who Tom was, he was an enigma and the only explanation is in Tom's own word to Frodo. Something significant is that Tom said he was there (in Middle Earth) before the Dark Lord came from outside, I think he was referring to Morgoth, not Sauron, as he also said he was there before the elves went to the west. Now, if we try to find an explanation in the books, or in Tolkien's letters or notes, we won't find any, but in the general context, it seems to me he was a maia. We know the maiar were spirits, and there many of them, some were very powerful like Eonwe or Arien, and some were less powerful. Of all the creatures defined in the Tolkien's books, Tom would only fit in the maiar category IMO. But that's only speculation of course

01-31-2002, 01:32 PM	#50
Dwarin Thunderhammer Khazad-Doomed Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: The Green Dragon Posts: 182	Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ “Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd aimênu!” Come visit The Rohan RPG! The only RPG to fanfic on the downs! Without law there can be no freedom. Without justice there can be no law.

01-31-2002, 04:18 PM	#51
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Please refer to the Encyclopedia of Arda...offers the most complete examination of evidence. Tom was an entity.. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-01-2002, 01:37 AM	#52
River Jordan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	Thunderhammer said: Tom Bombadil is Elvis! How else can you explain all that singing and those flashy outfits? He's ALMOST right! Just a little typo there - Tom Bombadil is ELVEN! Yes, it's true, the mystery is solved - he is most definitely an elf! (If not, then at the very least a good elf-friend - he's very elf-like!) - your friendly neighbourhood elf, River __________________ Your friendly neighbourhood elf, Lostlaithion River Jordan "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF

02-04-2002, 05:39 PM	#54
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	when will this topic end ive been gone for a moth and it is still going why wont u die __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

02-04-2002, 06:54 PM	#55
ArwenBaggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: I don't know... will there be a quiz on this later? Posts: 486	I agree with river and all the other people who think Tom is an Elf. But why dont you ask Tolkien himself! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] yeah right! Like we're going 2 ask a 110 year old corpse! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ .:Chelsy:. Reality is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Terennth Kingdoms

02-05-2002, 05:59 AM	#56
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	lol it doesn't die coz you can express a "sensible" opinion without fear of being proven wrong and arguing's just plain fun [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

02-07-2002, 09:07 PM	#57
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	A friend of mine said this: "Tom Bombadil is the coolest character in the LotR because he's just a sweet ancient crackhead with a pretty girlfriend." Suits me. Now, at the Council of Elrond, does Gandalf not talk about Tom Bombadil? Does he not say talk about the fact that Tom is "his own master", and he will be a "most unsafe guardian" for the Ring because he will forget all about it? I thought this was interesting. Gandalf also mentions the fact that in the end, if the Dark Lord is given free reign, Tom Bombadil will fall, "Last as he was First." No less confusing, but very curious. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

12-12-2002, 02:04 AM	#58
Veryamehtar Guest Posts: n/a	I think Tom Bombadil was a manifestation of Eru (Iluvatar). When Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin are invited to have a meal with Tom and Goldberry, Frodo asks her, "Who is Tom Bombadil?". She answers, "He is". This is exactly what 'Eru' means and so I think this is a hint to the origin of Tom Bombadil.

12-12-2002, 08:49 AM	#59
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	i see him as some kind of earth spirit, i think he was created as a part of arda unlike the valar etc who reside there in. __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-12-2002, 08:52 AM	#60
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I must disagree with Paladin. The fact that the ring does not affect Tom proves nothing. If Tom is Maiar, he like Sauron needs not become invisible. And the lust for the ring is not lust for the ring itself merely. The ring corrupts moreso by the power it gives, then in itself. Gandalf clearly states the REASONS why he dares not touch it. He is not without (benevolent) ambitions. Being so concretically and lucratively offerred power to fulfill them, he fears he might not be able to resist temptation. This correlation exists through the book. Smeagol succumbs to the ring, while Deagol does not seem to. Smeagol lusts for power. Bilbo and Frodo are to a great degree unnaffected. They, like most hobbits, desire little pleasures of life. Sam seems totally unnaffected. He is kind and brave, but lets face it. Sam is simpleton not desiring anything beyond fullfilling ones duty, being loyal to ones friends, seeing wonderful things and tending a garden. Boromir succumbs. He desires power. Power in war, power to rule, fame as a savior and hero. Lust for the ring is in great part lust for power. Tom has no desires. He is. Other beings might have as well been safe from the lust for ring. Radagast "the simpleton", "the bird tamer" might have been one. Galadriel was able to resist the temptation. The ring was not magically beaconing to her. She was tempted by power, but she decided to "diminish, go to west and remain Galadriel." Most likely the only human who could have safely handled the ring would have been the master of the prancing pony. Immunity to the lust for the ring does not arise from power, but rather from being content to things and oneself "as are." Being happy and simple qualifies. Being powerful enough to be exactly what one wants qualifies as well. So does having found/accepted ones place and lot in life. *** I think Tom was Maiar as are all the "ancient" spirits/beings in LOTR. I mean including treebeard and the great eagles. I'll dig out my silmarillion and LOTR and check, if I can back this consept with exact quotes. However I see it like this. In the begining there was already a great amount of "spirits" some of them participating in the song with eru, some not. Theese spirits were of varying degrees of power (...and perchance - age). Mightiest among them being Melkor. Then when arda was created, many decended there. Some of the more powerful became valar. Many clad themselves like the valar and became the maiar serving them. Some took residence among the kelvar and olvar or something (I think this is said in the discussion between Yawanna and Eru.) This is the origin of the eagles and ents. The eagles and ents living in the end of the 3rd age are either decendants of maiar and mortal animal/plant, or maiar who have lived in mortal body long enough to forget almost all of what they were. Some of them did not go to live with valar, but rather to live with the land, so to say. One of theese spirits/maiar is Tom. Or maybe he is not exactly maiar... if maiar means one of the servants of valar. But I think Tom is definately of the same stock as were maiar, valar, dragons, werewolves and the first ents and eagles. [ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

12-12-2002, 09:42 AM	#61
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Hey, I don't know if you've seen this thread or not, but if you haven't you definitely should. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=001272 __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.