The Unions of Elves and Men

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I would add Dior and Nimloth to the list. NoME makes it clear (1.XVIII, "Elvish Ages & Numenorean", dated ca. 1965) that the Half-Elven were natively mortal, though living five times as long as regular mortals.

Interestingly, one could argue that Dior is not even Half-Elven, but pure mortal... with Elven and Maian traits. He was born after Luthien had already chosen mortality. She was no longer an Elf in... Fate? Death?... when she gave birth to him. She was only a half-Elf-half-Maia in physical form and power, and that she does pass on, but not in how her spirit is tied to the world. So the first and only Half-Elves to die before the decision to choose kindreds is offered to their kind were Elured and Elurin, of whom we know precious little. I always wondered which way the coin flipped in Mandos, but supposed that the old man was pretty cautious about not taking away a mortal's gift, so probably in favour of mortal death.

But if Half-Elves are mortal by default, what does that make Arwen? Or does her lifespan fit into the 5-times-mortal-length range before she chooses to be mortal? It seems like before death they are immortal by default unless they choose to become mortal, but on death I still can't see Mandos taking away the Gift from them, he would err on the side of offering it unless chosen otherwise.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So the first and only Half-Elves to die before the decision to choose kindreds is offered to their kind were Elured and Elurin, of whom we know precious little. I always wondered which way the coin flipped in Mandos, but supposed that the old man was pretty cautious about not taking away a mortal's gift, so probably in favour of mortal death.

At least one version of the fall of Doriath implies that the boys *did* survive, in Ossiriand. They could have lived 250-500 years. Presumably they didn't go to Numenor, so if they married it would have been to elves in the Lindon backwoods. That sounds story-disruptive, so I guess they just hung out with Maglor and Daeron instead?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But if Half-Elves are mortal by default, what does that make Arwen? Or does her lifespan fit into the 5-times-mortal-length range before she chooses to be mortal? It seems like before death they are immortal by default unless they choose to become mortal, but on death I still can't see Mandos taking away the Gift from them, he would err on the side of offering it unless chosen otherwise.

I think it's explicit in the Silm that Elrond and either his children or his descendents would be given a Choice: they would be immortal until they chose either mortality or otherwise. Thus Arwen was immortal, but could have chosen mortality at any time. Presumably a choice of mortality breeds true (ie Eldarion is just mortal), but I'm not sure if a hypothetical child of Elladan and an elvish wife would be given the same choice.

(I guess it's actually Earendil, Elwing, and their descendants in immortal lineages? Or something. I Don't Have My Books (TM).)

hS

[Mithadan]

I agree with Galadriel55 regarding Dior, though this is only an opinion. I do not recall anything written specifically regarding whether Dior would be considered an Elf, a Man, or Half-Elven. In light of this, I might amend my view in my initial post regarding the number of unions between Men and Elves, since Dior wedded Nimloth, an Elf. However, given the uncertainty of the status of Dior specifically, and since the decision of the Valar regarding the Half-Elven did not occur until later, this is merely an inclination.

The "status" of Arwen and her brothers has previously been debated at length here. The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen has Elrond saying that so long as he remains in Middle Earth, Arwen may depart to the West "if she so chooses." This is referred to by Elrond as "the doom that is laid on us." This, while a bit ambiguous, implies that Arwen and her brothers had the choice of Elrond and Elros to choose their fate. Others believe that Elrond's choice was passed on to his children and that Arwen's decision was a form of special dispensation.

[Huinesoron]

NoME comes to the rescue on Dior: 1.IV "Time Scales" says: "Twins were very rare, and [Amrod and Amras are] the only case recorded of the Eldar in the ancient histories, except for the twin sons, Eldún and Elrún, of Dior Eluchil, but he was half-elven. In later times (Third Age) Elrond had twin sons." That's a ca. 1959 text. He's also directly called "Dior Halfelven" at the beginning of HoME XI's "Wandering of Hurin" (entry for 497), though that doesn't necessarily mean anything for his lifespan. (Since I brought up the boys living longer: Home XII explicitly says they died, in "Problem of Ros".)

NoME is also explicit on Arwen, but throws in a brand new surprise!

Originally Posted by "Nature of Middle-earth 1.XI Aging of Elves"

[Earendil] obtained the grace (from Eru via Manwë) that his children, being half-elven on both sides - descendents of Idril and of Luthien - should (a) have a choice of which kindred they would belong to, and (b) should in each kind have "a long and fair youth" - sc., should only slowly reach maturity - and that this should extend to the second generation: thus Elrond : Arwen and Elros : Vardamir.

... Eldarion was mortal and was not by promise included in the "grace of Earendil"...

... [Elros] lived at the Numenorean rate and died at the age of 500 (voluntarily and therefore not at very great age)... Vardamir lived to be 391 and so was little more than normal Numenorean age (300).

A draft of this passage actually extended the grace to the third generation, giving Eldarion and Tar-Amandil the same choice, but this was rejected. Vardamir wasn't! It makes his rejection of the sceptre even more significant if he was also rejecting immortality.

It's worth noting that Elros had three other children, so the possibility of immortal half-elven from his side is there. Nothing is recorded of them or their descendents apart from the trio's names.

Back in "Elvish Ages & Numenorean", we can read that "At marriage Arwen became 'mortal'", and about "had she remained Elvish". Elrond is described as having been "made Elven" after the fall of Thangorodrim, while Elros is said to have lived out his life half-elven, and to be the only one who did. So it seems like Elrond and Elros had a weird lifespan due to their parents both being half-elven, but were natively mortal; they were given the choice to change that. Their choice would pass to their children, but those children could choose to reverse it for themselves and their descendents.

None of which has much bearing on the question of elf-mortal marriages, but I'm pleased that the answers actually exist.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that, since the Valar had no authority to take away the Gift of Men (death), that any person with any Mannish blood was a Man, regardless of parentage. Earendil and Elwing and and their children were an Exception granted under extraordinary circumstances, and the choice only applied to them and their children, and Elrond's children. (Note also that Mithrellas' descendants were Men).

Dior lived and died before that ruling, and in any event as observed above it wouldn't have applied, since Luthien was mortal by the time he was born. Now, what sort of lifespan he might have had since genetically he was half-Elven (or 1/4E 1/4M) and conceivably may have had a more durable hroa we don't know, but it would have been finite. The specific extended lifespans granted to the House of Elros were, again, part of the Numenorean gift package.

[Huinesoron]

Hunting out more references... the Tale of Years in HoME XII tells of Elrond's children:

Originally Posted by TY 2300

These children were three parts of Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

This contradicts the various NoME texts which claim Arwen's choice was made at her wedding, and also implies the El-twins both became mortal.

The beginning of HoME XII's "The Making of Appendix A" holds that Elros' choice immediately bound his descendents, while to Elrond's children...

Originally Posted by Making of Appendix A

... a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they wedded with one of Mankind, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

It's unclear what would happen if they stayed in Middle-earth unmarried in this version.

I vaguely recognise the reference William Cloud Hicklin mentions, but also can't find the cite.

EDIT: Thought it might be in Letters, but no. Letters 153 & 154 both assert that "the half-elven" were given a choice, and name both Elrond and Arwen. If linked with WCH's cite, that would imply that all children of an elf and a half-elf would have the same choice, while all children of a mortal and a half-elf would be mortal. But it might also just be a summary for simplicity.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think the two cites are really contradictory, given Tolkien's old-school views: marrying a Man necessarily meant remaining with him/her in Middle-earth, and therefore staying behind when Elrond departed. I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint a moment when a "mortality switch" was flipped; Arwen does not appear to have died of anything except grief, and that essentially voluntarily.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that, since the Valar had no authority to take away the Gift of Men (death), that any person with any Mannish blood was a Man, regardless of parentage. Earendil and Elwing and and their children were an Exception granted under extraordinary circumstances, and the choice only applied to them and their children, and Elrond's children. (Note also that Mithrellas' descendants were Men).

The quote is in HoMe 5:
"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged."
Chapter 17, Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This contradicts the various NoME texts which claim Arwen's choice was made at her wedding, and also implies the El-twins both became mortal.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I don't think the two cites are really contradictory, given Tolkien's old-school views: marrying a Man necessarily meant remaining with him/her in Middle-earth, and therefore staying behind when Elrond departed. I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint a moment when a "mortality switch" was flipped; Arwen does not appear to have died of anything except grief, and that essentially voluntarily.

Thinking on this a bit more, I suspect "doom" is used here to mean prophecy: it's not that Manwe made a whole new ruling at the birth of each of Elrond's children, but that they were already under the offer of a choice, and were prophesied to make that choice at the point Elrond departed overseas. Elrond's departure was a drawn-out process, so Arwen making the choice at her wedding fits into that.

I'm not sure what it means for the twins, though. "with him, or... remained behind" certainly implies that they had to get on the White Ship with their dad, but it's possible to read it as "depart to be Overseas with Elrond, or elect to remain behind permanently" - ie, the departure doesn't have to be on the same boat as him. But the simplest reading is that Elladan and Elrohir both chose mortality.

Oh! And one more legendary union for the list: the Took family spoke of having a "fairy bride" somewhere in their history. Her existence is even less certain than Mithrellas, but we can't in good faith ignore her.

hS