Etymology: Isengard and Helms Deep

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Apparently the guy who made the claims have now had a book published on the topic.

Not surprising. Slap the "Tolkien" name on something, and fame and money are yours, is the thinking.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am very curious, but I don't want to help spread misinformation... Do I buy the book, so that I have something to fume about?

I wouldn't. There's quite enough to fume about as it is.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It just got worse.

Apparently after these claims got a bit of media attention a local library started an initiative to put up signs at placenames Tolkien supposedly borrowed. The mayor got involved, and now it is an official municipal project.

It is a bit of a backwater, so probably a desperate attempt at attracting tourists.


https://www.syddjurs.dk/da/nyheder/g...2975333014667/

https://www.tv2ostjylland.dk/syddjur...-paa-djursland

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I borrowed the book at the library.

Basically his argument is:

• Tolkien had intimate knowledge of Jutish history from his scholarly work (Finn & Hengest) and actively used this in his writing (Cottage of Lost Play).

• Tolkien really liked maps.

Therefore Tolkien had to be aware of the place names Aros, Hjelms Dyb, Eskerod and Isengård when writing his tales.

To get to this very compelling argument one has to read through 170 pages of the author (badly) retelling the pre-Danish conquest history of Jutland, and outlining Tolkien's work on the Finnsburg fragment.

As an extra slap in the face, he introduces his argument by admitting that he has absolutely no proof of his theory...

[Mithadan]

During my sophomore year in high school (I was 15 or 16) I wrote a paper on Tolkien's "sources." While I relied, in part, upon several then popular analyses, I also did some independent research, matching the Valar to the Greek and Roman pantheons (Norse and other northern European information regarding their respective pantheons were far less available then), using Greek and Latin dictionaries to seek matches for Elvish names and places, etc. I was awarded a "B" because, as I learned, my teacher was not a "fan" of Tolkien. But I remain convinced that Dwarvish is loosely based upon Hebrew... However, I have no knowledge regarding Tolkien's exposure to that language.

I no longer have a copy of that paper but I recall the analyses I cited. Each theorized that Tolkien was familiar with Finnish, Greek, Latin, Old and Middle English, Norse mythology and the Eddas, and maps, northern European geography, Egyptian architecture (or was it Mayan architecture?), the Alps, the Black Forest and possibly the Himalayas, the Andes and the dark side of the moon. Each analysis conclusively determined that Tolkien's "sources" had been identified. Yes, he had inspirations. But he wanted to tell a good story, a story that flowed from his soul and his imagination. I long ago decided that his sources were completely irrelevant. Just read his writing and appreciate it!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

But I remain convinced that Dwarvish is loosely based upon Hebrew... However, I have no knowledge regarding Tolkien's exposure to that language.

I feel like I have definitely seen this before... Or was it simply that he made some link between Dwarves and Jews as a people and in my mind I've extrapolated that link to language? In any case, as someone who knows a little bit of Hebrew, I think that Khuzdul lends itself very well to Hebrew pronunciation, or perhaps Hebrew phonetics lend themselves well to Khuzdul. But now that I think of it, even the word structure sorta falls naturally when said in Hebrew. It certainly has been my preferred "imaginary accent" for Khuzdul words. I would not be in the least bit surprised if someone did manage to unearth a loose linguistic connection.

I am actually curious if he did not also loosely borrow the writing system for his tengwar. Hebrew script treats vowels in a similar fashion as Elvish - there are no vowels in the alphabet, there are only dot notations (which may or may not be written in, you won't see them in some texts) to indicate vowel sounds, similar to how tengwar works. I believe Arabic has a similar writing system. As a scholar of languages, I am positive that Tolkien would have had some exposure during his studies at least to the basics of the Semitic language group as an example of language diversity... Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic... Something ought to have come up. I have no proof either but I feel like he just ought to have. Maybe he researched Hebrew pronunciation when writing the Shibboleth of Feanor.

Anyways, not to completely sidetrack the thread (which I have been following with some ongoing, albeit vain, curiosity), this is to note that while pet theories are fun, it's one thing to have a pet theory and quite another to keep chasing after it with such perseverance when it comes down to "might have, but [at least as] equally might not have". It sounds like the book was a very dedicated elaboration on what the author wants to be true. Meta-headcanon?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I feel like I have definitely seen this before... Or was it simply that he made some link between Dwarves and Jews as a people and in my mind I've extrapolated that link to language? In any case, as someone who knows a little bit of Hebrew, I think that Khuzdul lends itself very well to Hebrew pronunciation, or perhaps Hebrew phonetics lend themselves well to Khuzdul. But now that I think of it, even the word structure sorta falls naturally when said in Hebrew. It certainly has been my preferred "imaginary accent" for Khuzdul words. I would not be in the least bit surprised if someone did manage to unearth a loose linguistic connection.

I am actually curious if he did not also loosely borrow the writing system for his tengwar. Hebrew script treats vowels in a similar fashion as Elvish - there are no vowels in the alphabet, there are only dot notations (which may or may not be written in, you won't see them in some texts) to indicate vowel sounds, similar to how tengwar works. I believe Arabic has a similar writing system. As a scholar of languages, I am positive that Tolkien would have had some exposure during his studies at least to the basics of the Semitic language group as an example of language diversity... Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic... Something ought to have come up. I have no proof either but I feel like he just ought to have. Maybe he researched Hebrew pronunciation when writing the Shibboleth of Feanor.

Anyways, not to completely sidetrack the thread (which I have been following with some ongoing, albeit vain, curiosity), this is to note that while pet theories are fun, it's one thing to have a pet theory and quite another to keep chasing after it with such perseverance when it comes down to "might have, but [at least as] equally might not have". It sounds like the book was a very dedicated elaboration on what the author wants to be true. Meta-headcanon?

I can't place it, but I definitely have a recollection of Tolkien, somewhere, saying that he constructed (the little bit of) Khuzdul vocabulary from triconsonantal bases, similar to Semitic languages.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I can't place it, but I definitely have a recollection of Tolkien, somewhere, saying that he constructed (the little bit of) Khuzdul vocabulary from triconsonantal bases, similar to Semitic languages.

The Ardalambion page (I know, I know) suggests there is some discussion of Khuzdul structure in Vinyar Tengwar #48, but also drops two HoME abbreviations that show up so rarely I couldn't place them at first: RS and TI: The Return of the Shadow & The Treason of Isengard.

Those two books repeatedly refer (eg, RS:466, TI:174) to a set of notes written "long after" LotR. Christopher doesn't provide the text, but in his discussion he gives several triconsonantal bases, once in JRRT's own words: "that NRG was Khuzdul for 'black' is seen in the Dwarf-name for Mordor: Nargun."

My guess is that VT48 provides the full text of those notes; apparently it comes up as part of a discussion of the name of the river Lhûn.

hS

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

During my sophomore year in high school (I was 15 or 16) I wrote a paper on Tolkien's "sources." While I relied, in part, upon several then popular analyses, I also did some independent research, matching the Valar to the Greek and Roman pantheons (Norse and other northern European information regarding their respective pantheons were far less available then), using Greek and Latin dictionaries to seek matches for Elvish names and places, etc. I was awarded a "B" because, as I learned, my teacher was not a "fan" of Tolkien. But I remain convinced that Dwarvish is loosely based upon Hebrew... However, I have no knowledge regarding Tolkien's exposure to that language.

I no longer have a copy of that paper but I recall the analyses I cited. Each theorized that Tolkien was familiar with Finnish, Greek, Latin, Old and Middle English, Norse mythology and the Eddas, and maps, northern European geography, Egyptian architecture (or was it Mayan architecture?), the Alps, the Black Forest and possibly the Himalayas, the Andes and the dark side of the moon. Each analysis conclusively determined that Tolkien's "sources" had been identified. Yes, he had inspirations. But he wanted to tell a good story, a story that flowed from his soul and his imagination. I long ago decided that his sources were completely irrelevant. Just read his writing and appreciate it!

My problem is that someone with very limited insights are selling a halfbaked analysis as a fact. I would probably have ignored this, had Syddjurs muncipality not decided to put up signs and use this speculation to promote them selves.

He cites Finn & Hengest alot, but other than that most of his references are to Tolkien Encyclopedias etc. He really does not know his source material. I don't think he even know of HoME.

[Mithadan]

I no longer have a copy of that paper but I recall the analyses I cited. Each theorized that Tolkien was familiar with Finnish, Greek, Latin, Old and Middle English, Norse mythology and the Eddas, and maps, northern European geography, Egyptian architecture (or was it Mayan architecture?), the Alps, the Black Forest and possibly the Himalayas, the Andes and the dark side of the moon. Each analysis conclusively determined that Tolkien's "sources" had been identified.

Rune, "sar·casm (sär′kăz′əm) n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to express contempt or ridicule."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

My problem is that someone with very limited insights are selling a halfbaked analysis as a fact.

This is unusual?