Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXV: On the Borders of Mirkwood Planning Thread

[Galadriel55]

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

From what I've read about the role and it's sequence of events.

BH sets a booby trap around Person X.

Wolves target and kill Person X.

In their celebration/joy at a successful kill the wolves are not very careful and one of them triggers the trap, is caught and killed in it.

After one of their own is caught in a booby trap, the wolves proceed more carefully in future kills and sniff out/disable any more traps.

So in the event you describe, I would say the sequence would go. The Ranger stopped the wolves kill. The BH's trap was never triggered and no wolf dies.

[A Little Green]

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

I really like the Beast Hunter idea. I agree it would require a larger village, but then, I'm guessing we'll have a lot of people with empty calendars over the summer

The nightmare wolf sounds interesting too - although the obvious question is whether s/he can haunt the same person multiple Nights in a row. I'm imagining a scenario where the dead wolf has figured out who the Seer is and proceeds to block all further Seer dreams for the entirety of the game. Also do all dead wolves become individual nightmare wolves, or is there only one nightmare wolf pack? (Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

[Rikae]

Please sign me up!

Originally Posted by Boro

send a PM to the villager and say they had been haunted by the spirit of a dead wolf.

I quite like this, because it gives that villager a small, but potentially useful, piece of information. Just knowing you attracted a wolf's attention can spark a whole new train of thought.

Is the nightmare wolf a specific wolf or the result of discussion and voting among the dead pack?

[Loslote]

Thanks for modding Boro! I like the setting, and the special roles sound interesting. I'm excited for this game!

I like the idea of the BH in a larger village, I agree with the 16 player threshold.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

(Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

That occurred to me as well. I think having possibly a known innocent every Night is too powerful - what if only Gifteds are told that they were targeted? Also, what if only one of the wolves has the Nightmare Wolf role? Then the wolves might have to plan around "if one of us dies, it should be NW", and the village would have an extra twist to try to figure out if the wolves throw the NW under the bus.

[Huinesoron]

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

-The Nightmare Wolf sounds heavily unbalanced - but I'm not sure which way! The wolves get two shots per night to take out the Seer (one permanent, one temporary), but the villagers can theoretically clear someone every day. I think not letting ordos know they were nightmared would probably swing the balance too far - it would also mean the Gifted had even more information, so you're back into Gifted vs Wolf (+ bystanders) territory. As originally written, though, the two effects may balance out?

-I think the Medium as written looks pretty solid.

hS

[Loslote]

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Originally Posted by HS

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

In all fairness though, I think it's so frustrating when roles are not revealed upon death. It's blind chaos.


I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Or that, yes, that's an important detail, and that sounds like an about right correction to make up for it. (Because, unfairness to people in "right timezones" aside, if it was just about the one who sends it, people could also use it as meta-thinking for who might the living Wolves still be, and such.)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

That sounds 200% abuse-able and I can absolutely see what one could do with that.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

I like the idea of there being some quota for the dead thread before the ability kicks in. Otherwise I also support the idea of all the dead WWs deciding amongst themselves (via Nightly PMs, presumably) and just sending their pick to the Mod, the same way a Night kill would be done.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

Yep! Welcome. I just meant I'm in no particular rush to get started. All of June is open for me. First weekend of July I have a wedding (so far hasn't been cancelled). But I'm not in the wedding party, so I'd still be available.

And as far as DL's go. the DL in Nog's game seemed to work well for everyone. I'm completely available after 4pm EST (8pm GMT) every day. So, I'm flexible there to have it then or a little later if that's better.

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?



Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

Welcome BG :-D. G55 answered those questions on the Medium. And the Nightmare Wolf (NW) still hammering out the details.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.


Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

Haha, well in that case I would say it shall be when Dol Guldur is known as Amon Lanc

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

My thinking is to be empowered to be a Medium, and a "voice for the dead" it would mean a majority from the dead. I considered your suggestion that dead wolves vote would count as 2 in the dead thread, but thought that might give them too much power in impacting the Day lynch. And a Medium could be chosen by essentially the dead wolf (and not the majority of the dead). After already giving the dead wolf, in the form of the NW, a power to effect the gifteds at Night, I steered away from allowing them the potential power to pick a Medium.

I mean technically they could still have that potential, but it would just be a little harder. It would also give the chance that there would be no Medium, and therefor no living players vote gets doubled.

I'm not sure if that would make it too restricting for the dead innocents. But I have read the very first WW game on the Downs, where the Barrow-wight allowed retractable votes. Once a player reached a majority the voting stopped and the player was lynched right away. I won't allow retractable votes in the Living thread, that's just too much of a headache.

But I think given how difficult it could be for the dead to agree on a Medium, I would allow the dead retractable votes. And then just go by the B-W's rule. Once the majority threshold is hit, that person is automatically chosen as Medium for that Day. I would post in the Living thread once I see that happen. In the event the threshold is not met 2 hours prior to the DL, I would post in the Living thread there was too much division amongst the dead and they chose no Medium that day.

Thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by Huey

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

When I run fantasy sports leagues I put everyone into a randomizer and click randomize 10 times to determine the draft order. I was going to follow the same, just put all the wolves in the randomizer, click 10 times and whatever name was first would be the one dead. But I do like this idea of who sends the night kill in better.

I also am not opposed to the wolves deciding amongst themselves and sending me who gets sacrificed if caught in the BH's trap. So, let's go with that, the wolves can also PM me who gets "sacrificed" to the trap.

----

On the Nightmare Werewolf (NW), thanks for all the input and I wanted to put out the basics, so we could all get a discussion going on the possibilities and potential of the role. To kind of combine the options from the discussion so far...here:

Option 1

The NW only goes into effect when 2 wolves have died. They are able to Privately communicate during the Night phase and PM me the name of the player they decide to haunt

I will only PM a gifted to alert them their ability was blocked by the dead wolves

Option 2

I'm really intrigued by Lottie's, Rikae's and Greenie's points that it might be beneficial for an ordo to find out they were the target of the NW haunts. So..

-There is 1 NW pre-determined and informed to the entire pack who the NW is. Which would make for some interesting dynamics for the pack to decide on potentially sacrificing...etc

In order to put some risk into the potential reward. When dead, the NW would not have to haunt someone every night. But if they choose to, regardless of the role, that player will be notified via PM from me that their sleep was haunted by the NW. This I can see would limit the power of the NW, that I feared could happen if allowed every night once a wolf was dead.

I really like the strategy in this option, because as Rikae said it could give the ordo "haunted" a new perspective. Also, there would be a risk for the NW to decide to haunt someone every single night. Of course the player can claim whatever they want, that they suffered from nightmares...etc It could be a bluff, a lie to attract the living wolves to kill them.. The potential is fascinating.

The only thing that would be forbidden is for of course the player to reveal or directly say "Boro sent me a PM saying the NW haunted me." That would result in the player's immediate mod-fire and removal. But, I know we're all good sports about not cheating the game.

[Blind Guardian]

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I'm intending to allow the potential for a dead cobbler, or dead wolf to have a little more impact in either choosing or stopping a Medium.

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)

There will be 2 people, the first from D1 and the second from N2 (unless Ranger save).

And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).

Or any Day from that matter. From what I understood, a Medium vote requires that over 50% of the Dead Thread votes for them. I.e. even if there are 10 dead people, but their votes are split 4/3/3, there will not be a medium (because in this case you need a minimum of 6 votes).

Originally Posted by BG

And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

That would make a formidable pack.

Originally Posted by BG

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I think no Medium. Having a random Medium defeats the point of achieving a majority+ vote, which gives the village certain info. If the Medium is random, that info is lost - in fact, the village doesn't even know if the vote is from the GT or if it's randomized.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)?

The NW acts at Night on gifted roles. They do not act during the Day. Also, the Medium is not a permanent role, but rather a title that gets voted to a different person every Day. That person doesn't have a special power they are in charge of, their vote just counts twice.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?

I think that's still in the air. Is the NW a predetermined role, or is it the first (or second) wolf to die, or do all dead wolves PM amongst themselves and send a collective pick?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is the TA before the events in the Lord of the Rings. A group of mannish settlers have built a town in the southern end of Mirkwood. The woods folk haven't lived here long, before it has become invaded by werewolves intent on wiping out the village.

Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

...anyway, the setup looks very good to me by default. I especially like the Bounty Hunter... eee... disclaimer: I already perceive I am not, and likely will not, be able to remember the role's actual name. The Nightmare Wolf under those circumstances would be a must-have, as it is, with the Medium (even though and the Bounty... or whatever... Hunter, the game is likely to be skewed a little to the villagers' side. (Even though of course the Medium can be as much a boon as bane, but maybe a tiny bit more likely to be helpful.) The NW should take care of it though.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

I actually rather like this idea.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

I see someone's already got into the plotting mode
But yeah, I'm a bit afraid of the "reveal to any NW's targets that they've been targeted" part... but if people start bluffing and double-bluffing with it, then, no harm done I guess...

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

These are actually good points. Even though on Day 2, there would already be two dead (Day 1 lynch and Night kill), but they would have to unanimously decide on what they do. But I guess that at least would give them something to discuss. But it may happen more often than not that the Medium simply won't get chosen. (Which, I mean, is just as well. No big deal.)

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

EDIT: X-ed with Gal (why do I feel the need to mark this even now?!?)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

These are actually good points. Even though on Day 2, there would already be two dead (Day 1 lynch and Night kill), but they would have to unanimously decide on what they do. But I guess that at least would give them something to discuss. But it may happen more often than not that the Medium simply won't get chosen. (Which, I mean, is just as well. No big deal.)

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

Looking at the Quarantine Thread from Nog's game, the villagers were quite unanimous in who to vote for. The lack of controversy can be a good thing and a bad thing (remember everyone innocently voting Rune?), but in both cases it's a less-amount-of-scheming thing. I suppose things would be different when you empower as opposed to directly vote someone, when you're trying to balance between signalling something with your choice of Medium but also trying to empower a vote you agree with. Will the >50% cut off make the voting even more unanimous, or will it play to the dead wolves' hands if the Dead innocents change their mind about their Medium choice mid-vote because of the Game Thread developments? The >50% rule gives the wolves a better chance at sabotaging the vote, but I wonder if it will also force the innocents to undue coherence.