Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Bumpey bump?

[Morsul the Dark]

Just to get the ball rolling;

Bergen and Luthien talking about Aragorn and Arwen
Two Man/elf relationships one more famous but not the first.

[Urwen]

Beren and Luthien are involved, but the answer aren't A and A.

[Urwen]

Bump again, please.

Hint: the answers do share the initial A, but they're not from the third age.

[Huinesoron]

An'?

Aegnor, son of the Noldor, Second Tribe of the Caliquendi, fell in love with
Andreth, daughter of the First House of the Edain, House Beor,
Something something, don't get this line,
And he died in the Bragollach before she died (presumably of old age, though possibly in the Fall of Dorthinion).

Speaking of Andreth's great-nephew Beren, and Aegnor's first cousin (once removed) Luthien.

hS

[Urwen]

The third like means he is the second son of the third house of Noldor, but I forgot Orodreth exists.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The third like means he is the second son of the third house of Noldor, but I forgot Orodreth exists.

Angrod, I think. At least I've always remembered them as 'Angrod and Aegnor'. Orodreth may or may not be younger than both of them.

Will try to come up with something.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Born to the one who went to the water,
Held by the one who returned from beyond,
Left by the one who sought somewhere hotter,
Claimed by the one who for ages had longed,
Lost to the ones who took what they di'n't oughta,
Given to the one who truly belonged.

And thence to the ones who followed the daughter:
The namesake, the home-bound, the hill-dweller strong.

(Edited to complete the set.)

hS

[Urwen]

The third line implies Maedhros. The fourth line implies Beren and Luthien. The first line implies Earendil. They each were parents/ancestors to Elrond and Elros.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The third line implies Maedhros. The fourth line implies Beren and Luthien. The first line implies Earendil. They each were parents/ancestors to Elrond and Elros.

I think you're stretching a lot with the Beren and Luthien link, but regardless, this is nowhere near the right answer I'm afraid.

hS

[Huinesoron]

The riddle is comprehensive for the entire time period covered in the books, mentioning every relevant person.

The 'ones' in line 5 includes three individuals.

hS

[Urwen]

Line 3 = Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir?


Or alternatively, Phary, Castamir and Wulf, who took the throne that wasn't theirs by rights of succession.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Line 3 = Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir?

Or alternatively, Phary, Castamir and Wulf, who took the throne that wasn't theirs by rights of succession.

The riddle is in chronological order.

In fact, I've just discovered I can add two more lines to the end:

Born to the one who went to the water,
Held by the one who returned from beyond,
Left by the one who sought somewhere hotter,
Claimed by the one who for ages had longed,
Lost to the ones who took what they di'n't oughta,
Given to the one who truly belonged.

And thence to the ones who followed the daughter:
The namesake, the home-bound, the hill-dweller strong.

hS

[Urwen]

So there is someone - the namesake of the daughter - who followed said daughter.


The only real namesakes I could think of are Lalaith/Nen Lalaith and Nimrodel/Nimrodel, and Elanor/Elanor. But in all three, the namesakes are not human, nor could they 'follow' the original.

[Urwen]

So it isn't Phary/Castamir/Wulf either? The ones in line 5?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So there is someone - the namesake of the daughter - who followed said daughter.

Nope. 'The namesake' is not the namesake of 'the daughter', but of another character.

Originally Posted by Urwen

So it isn't Phary/Castamir/Wulf either? The ones in line 5?

It is not; as I said, it's chronological, any any chronology where the fifth step was 'S.A. 3255-T.A. 2758' would be... well, kind of fun, actually, but probably not solid enough for a riddle.

hS

[Urwen]

So this 'daughter' had three followers.

[Urwen]

Knowing you, it has something to do with Sam, so Red Book of Westmarch is the answer.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So this 'daughter' had three followers.

Think about what 'follow' might mean.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Knowing you, it has something to do with Sam, so Red Book of Westmarch is the answer.

I... huh.

Okay, I have no idea how you came to the idea that I throw Sam into everything, but yes, it does have something to do with him. Not the Red Book, though.

hS

[Urwen]

Swords of Gondolin, then? As in Glamdring, Orcrist, Sting, and twin blades wielded by Merry and Pippin? (And possibly Anguirel too, given the 'hotter' line)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Swords of Gondolin, then? As in Glamdring, Orcrist, Sting, and twin blades wielded by Merry and Pippin? (And possibly Anguirel too, given the 'hotter' line)

I quite like that, but no, and not really close. The answer is in the singular.

hS

[Urwen]

This is tough, and I like tough riddles.

[Urwen]

Follow could mean they came after her as rulers/something else

[Urwen]

I have an idea, and reasoning which is sound for the most part, except that this thing isn't known to have passed over to any hobbit (except maybe Elanor)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

This is tough, and I like tough riddles.

Good! Sadly I didn't really construct it in a way that you can pick away at it; if you get one of the lines, I think the whole thing will immediately follow. I'll try to work on that next time.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Follow could mean they came after her as rulers/something else

It does mean something along those lines, particularly the 'came after' part.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I have an idea, and reasoning which is sound for the most part, except that this thing isn't known to have passed over to any hobbit (except maybe Elanor)

By that description I know that your idea is wrong, but I'm interested in hearing it all the same. It might include something that points in the right direction.

hS

[Urwen]

All right. The ring of Barahir. It started with Finrod, who went to the water, then Barahir, then the Orcs, who took it from him along with his hand, then Beren reclaimed it, then it got passed onto Aragorn a long time after that, who passed it to Arwen, who passed it down to her sons/descendants, who thus followed her as the next people in line.

[Urwen]

I am assuming that the 'daughter' isn't just some random female, but rather that her name incorporates the word 'daughter' in it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

All right. The ring of Barahir. It started with Finrod, who went to the water, then Barahir, then the Orcs, who took it from him along with his hand, then Beren reclaimed it, then it got passed onto Aragorn a long time after that, who passed it to Arwen, who passed it down to her sons/descendants, who thus followed her as the next people in line.

Interesting! But we do know the names of a whole bunch of people between Beren and Aragorn, including the entire line of the Kings of Arnor; plus there's a bunch of unnamed Lords of Andunie in there. So that wouldn't be a complete list, which (after adding the last lines) this is, down to the end of the books.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I am assuming that the 'daughter' isn't just some random female, but rather that her name incorporates the word 'daughter' in it.

I mean, she's not just random, but she's not etymologically a daughter. She's also, notably, not any of the 'one's - she's just a convenient way to mark the final trio.

hS

[Urwen]

This riddle throws me off.

[Urwen]

Beren, Finrod and Glorfindel are the only known people who returned from beyond.....

[Urwen]

Hill-dweller: Sam
Home-Bound: Frodo

[Urwen]

Now, the most likely candidate is Beren, but what did Beren have that came to be in Hobbit possession...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Beren, Finrod and Glorfindel are the only known people who returned from beyond.....

My first thought of returning from Beyond was of Gandalf. Not sure how to apply it, but maybe you'll have more luck. And maybe it's none of the above.

[Galadriel55]

Certain lines sound like the One Ring to me, the main prompt being the thought about Gandalf, but it doesn't fit. Line 1 would be Isildur in Anduin, 2 is Gandalf who only holds it briefly, 3 is Bilbo with a stretch, 4 Frodo with a bigger stretch, but then it falls appart. Who didn't oughta - Deagol and Smeagol? Boromir? And anywaus, it's not chronologically accurate.


Now Urwen's posts about Sam and Elanor did give me an idea about the last lines: Elanor, Sam's daughter, was followed by a bunch more children with no shortage of namesakes. Though "hilldweller strong" reminds me more of Samwise the Strong himself. And that makes me think of the Shire. Or - hang on, no, it's BAG-END!

1. Not sure. Don't know what connection Bungo had with water. Unless it's just a reference to the Water?
2. Held by Bilbo who came back to the great disappointment of his relatives.
3. Left by Frodo seeking Mount Doom.
4. Claimed by the notorious Mrs. SB!
5. Ruffians? SBs? Saruman and Wormtongue? Ruffians would be my bet.
6. Sam? Whose place, unlike Frodo's, is in the Shire?
7-8: not sure of the exact people, but daughter might be Elanor and the followers either her siblings or her children. Probably siblings.

Well, how's that?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Now Urwen's posts about Sam and Elanor did give me an idea about the last lines: Elanor, Sam's daughter, was followed by a bunch more children with no shortage of namesakes. Though "hilldweller strong" reminds me more of Samwise the Strong himself. And that makes me think of the Shire. Or - hang on, no, it's BAG-END!

1. Not sure. Don't know what connection Bungo had with water. Unless it's just a reference to the Water?
2. Held by Bilbo who came back to the great disappointment of his relatives.
3. Left by Frodo seeking Mount Doom.
4. Claimed by the notorious Mrs. SB!
5. Ruffians? SBs? Saruman and Wormtongue? Ruffians would be my bet.
6. Sam? Whose place, unlike Frodo's, is in the Shire?
7-8: not sure of the exact people, but daughter might be Elanor and the followers either her siblings or her children. Probably siblings.

Well, how's that?

Spot on! Let's take a look:

1. Ummm... I got my 'parents of masters of Bag-End' muddled up and wound up referencing Drogo in place of Bungo, didn't I? Oops!
2-4. Exactly.
5. After Lobelia was arrested, Bag-End was held in succession by Lotho, and Saruman & Wormtongue.
6. Sam indeed.
7&8. Per the Gateway, Elanor (the daughter) moved away, so Bag-End passed to Frodo Gardner (namesake of Frodo Baggins). He presumably passed it to his son Holfast ('hole-dweller', and he to his son Harding ('strong one') of the Hill. Harding's death in S.R 1606 is the latest non-New Shadow event recorded by Tolkien.

Over to you, and sorry for mixing up line 1! I really need to check these things...

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

1. Ummm... I got my 'parents of masters of Bag-End' muddled up and wound up referencing Drogo in place of Bungo, didn't I? Oops!

Hey, no worries! Actually my first thought was "of course it's Drogo, that's obvious!", and only after some fact-checking it occurred to me that Drogo didn't have much to do with Bag End. I thought it was my lack of knowledge about Bungo Baggins that failed to supply the right bit of history. But you're certainly not the only one to confuse the masters' parents!

For what it's worth, I really liked this riddle. It's very descriptive - once I got to the answer I knew it had to be right - but cryptic enough that it took work to get to; very thorough history from start to finish; and poetic to boot. Interesting subject matter too. And referencing quite a bit of history and personages. Me gusta.

Here is my much humbler contribution:



Windless, yet animate,
With air of demise,
I'll wilt if I leave
My home, your paradise.
Gleaming and beautiful,
All polished silver -
I am the hope
That brings you to the river.
But temper desire:
I'll be your demise.
Once caught, you'll reject me.
Take the master's advice.


Happy riddling!

[Urwen]

I'll wilt if I leave
My home, your paradise.

These two lines seem to indicate Erendis.

[Morsul the Dark]

I’m zeroing in on the Masters advice bit which of course conjures up Bombadil.

A barrow wight fits parts

Old man willow others

[Galadriel55]

None of the above.

Originally Posted by Urwen

I'll wilt if I leave
My home, your paradise.

These two lines seem to indicate Erendis.

Keep in mind that it's YOUR paradise, not just MY home. I would think Aldarion's paradise was on his ship, the opposite of Erendis' home.

[Urwen]

So it is someone/something that can't leave their home or they'd die.