Bilbo´s treachery

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Well, I'm sorry, but it is.

I'm good at conceding a point, Zigur, when there is cause to. I have an ego, like all humans, but it embarrasses me more to fail to yield ground and I find it embarrassing when others don't. I find that it is an adult skill to tolerate some argy-bargy and to enjoy debate. But, I'd like to see you ground your point in some materials, please, especially since you asserted that The Ring doesn't act immediately, and that The Ring was not part of Prof's thinking/notes at Hobbit time.

Please do explain this more, but with materials please.

Everything relevant is in The Return of the Shadow. I will post a couple of things, but looking further is up to you. It is an extensive text/

.

Yes, I know. That's my point, so please let's have a look at what it is I seemed to have missed, that inspired you to cross-post over my comments.

Let's start with a shorter post. They get too long and too many points (of that I am often guilty). Let's take your two assertions as I've summarised them.

[Ivriniel]

I'm going to bed now, and will no doubt, find materials here am. Take your time. Again, it's your two assertions I'm testing, as The Ring doesn't have immediate influence over a bearer, and secondly, that The Ring wasn't conceived as a malevolent artefact in The Hobbit.

Please give consideration to my upstream materials as well. Especially those with dates of publications, and titles:

The Lord of the Rings - the TITLE but ONE YEAR behind the Hobbit's release in the 30's. "Lord".....who - if not Sauron - who did he have in mind?

PS - I wonder if Annatar had sex with the Noldor in the Ost In Edhil? These themes are never discussed and I often wonder why not. Case in point: Maeglin. It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious to hear your comments about this.

Cheers

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

you asserted that The Ring doesn't act immediately

I do not believe I said this and am not debating it. I am merely saying that Professor Tolkien did not think the Ring was evil when he wrote The Hobbit.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Ring was not part of Prof's thinking/notes at Hobbit time.

Please do explain this more, but with materials please.

I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow to show that he only came up with these ideas later. They may have been a short time later, but they were later.

I don't know what else to say. Remarks about being "embarrassed for" me are not appreciated. I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard to prove my point and you seem to have simply ignored them. In these posts you repeatedly claim that I haven't given you evidence when I have!

I also note that you have not provided evidence to support your claim that Professor Tolkien did already have these things in mind, which seems to make it rather moot.

And no I don't think Sauron had some kind of liaison with any of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. I do not perceive "Annatar" as a sexually attractive figure, although I realise many do; personally I believe that his "fairness" was an impression of supreme majesty, wisdom and intellect that he gave those who saw him - perhaps excessively so, hence the mistrust this fostered in Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I do not believe I said this and am not debating it. I am merely saying that Professor Tolkien did not think the Ring was evil when he wrote The Hobbit.

I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow to show that he only came up with these ideas later. They may have been a short time later, but they were later.

I don't know what else to say. Remarks about being "embarrassed for" me are not appreciated. I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard to prove my point and you seem to have simply ignored them. In these posts you repeatedly claim that I haven't given you evidence when I have!

I also note that you have not provided evidence to support your claim that Professor Tolkien did already have these things in mind, which seems to make it rather moot.

And no I don't think Sauron had some kind of liaison with any of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. I do not perceive "Annatar" as a sexually attractive figure, although I realise many do; personally I believe that his "fairness" was an impression of supreme majesty, wisdom and intellect that he gave those who saw him - perhaps excessively so, hence the mistrust this fostered in Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel.

A '...short time later...' will conjoin the disparity in arguments. By 1937/8

And as I pointed out to Galadriel. It's--rubbish--to assert that Bilbo wasn't already lying soon after procuring the ring. He lied about how he got it. Lies -- implicated with the Arkenstone thing as well.