Valar and Maia abilities?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Paradus

Greetings everyone.

My knowledge on the maia and valar is a little hazy but from what I know they are immortal, have divine powers and abilities but can't create, only Eru can.

Know I'm curious what kind of powers could they have?

-The Istari, though restricted when sent to middle-earth had divine powers
I.e, gandalf's fire and light, saruman's voice, Radagast's communication of beasts and the like.

-Ulmo had power over the sea I know that.

-Melkor threw discord and mockery on Eru's creations, i.e orcs, balrogs, trolls etc.

-The valar gave additional life to the numenorians.

What other powers could the maia and valar have I wonder?

-Powers i.e: Healing, Lightning summon, enhanced physical strength and speed, earth shattering, telekinesis, flight, continental shifting, cursing, necromancy etc.

cheers.

I like this thread.

It's tempting to get concrete when thinking about the Powers. I think all the ideas put down are well within their purview, but as Makers of Arda, they manifested much more. The creation of matter--minerals, elements and so on, but then of Life. Yavanna with the Kelvar and the Olvar.

Though, another theme in the mythology is the feats of a lifetime, as one-off manifestations of their 'wyrd'. Feanor and the Silmarils, was the Elf-y equivalent. Tolkien tended to use the word 'assay' about this area.

Each of the Valar, I suspect, had one such manifestation. Yavanna's was The Two Trees. During these, some part of their essence appears to have gone into the creation. Even Melkor and Sauron created events and artefacts into which they imbued a part of their essence. Melian and her Girdle in Doriath appears to have been another.

When I attempt to get a handle on the area in order to extract some underlying dimensions, I keep returning to the metaphysical dimensions for the really interesting stuff. For example, Elves and The Spirit World. Whoever crafted the metaphysical dimensions associated with the Straight Road? What's this 'otherworldyness' we see Glorfindel transition into? What is this 'Wraith' equivalent dimension of shadows? How is 'reality' itself organised? Mandos and his halls for all the Dead? Where are The Forgotten Caves (where the Ar Pharazon and co are imprisoned until The Second Making)? How is The Void's existence occurring in context to Arda?

But, it's the Flame Imperishable, Ea, that is the most intriguing. Something that is beyond light, but often attributed with 'living' radiance (the Phial and The Silmarils, the Sun and the Moon).

Then, even given all of that--one of the things The Powers just never were able to do: they were the *worst* at being able to see a lie. There was no-one in Arda who really ever had the capacity to read a mind, or a soul, infallibly. In fact, all the ruin in Middle Earth seems attributable to this one major pitfall.....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Then, even given all of that--one of the things The Powers just never were able to do: they were the *worst* at being able to see a lie. There was no-one in Arda who really ever had the capacity to read a mind, or a soul, infallibly. In fact, all the ruin in Middle Earth seems attributable to this one major pitfall.....

Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative. It was said of Manwë that he did not comprehend Melkor's devotion to evil because Manwë himself was free from it. I think the same could be said of the other Valar. And yes, though that lack of insight led to their being deceived, I see it as also being a saving grace in that none of them followed Melkor into evil, turning away from their assigned duty of "administering" Arda for the One.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative. It was said of Manwë that he did not comprehend Melkor's devotion to evil because Manwë himself was free from it. I think the same could be said of the other Valar. And yes, though that lack of insight led to their being deceived, I see it as also being a saving grace in that none of them followed Melkor into evil, turning away from their assigned duty of "administering" Arda for the One.

Hey there Inziladun,

I take your point. I'd forgotten that take on truth-speaking, and had some flashes of remembrance as I read your post, and it makes sense when I think about it. It's an interesting feature of the position about evil, the way it's put in the mythology. Evil-see-evil-do, so good-see-good-do, and no overlap.

The subject of evil, in one sense, as Tolkien writes about it, is a big area. I'd love to hear your thoughts: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18738 where I'm looking at this aspect of Eru's offspring.

If Eru made the Valar--and Melkor.....yadda yadda (see the URL). I've given thought to how Manwe's great sight might be adapted to this, without his manifestation of evil. As a being who exists in a contrast to Melkor, then there are many ideas about how Manwe's Sight and how to extend that.

I speak of a Power I call 'unsight' (I realise this is not cannon Tolkien--but, it's where I went thinking about Manwe and his 'not seeing' Melkor).....

cheers
ivriniel

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, I would clarify that idea to say that the Valar had great difficulty detecting deception because that act was in itself negative.

We can also observe these remarks from the second part of "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" (Section VII "Myths Transformed" from Morgoth's Ring):
"No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind other other 'equal beings': that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection."

Regarding the powers and abilities of the Valar, we might also take note of this comment from Section VI of "Myths Transformed" regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete." Before his descent into evil, Melkor was intended by Eru as an initiator. We can see how this was corrupted into impatience, and in Morgoth's own hierarchy Sauron took on a role similar to that which Eru intended for Manwë, completing projects Morgoth could not "in the furious haste of his malice."

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete."

It's just struck me that this is actually an interesting parallel with the roles of Elves and Men.

[Wousides]

I think another of Gandalf's powers was to raise the spirits and resolve of those he moved among. I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the section on the Maia in the Silmarillion (although it refers to him by his Maia name, Olorin).

[Blind Guardian]

This is a really good thread guys.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

We can also observe these remarks from the second part of "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" (Section VII "Myths Transformed" from Morgoth's Ring):
"No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind other other 'equal beings': that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection."

About whether or not scanning for deception, is essentially a 'negative' event, I have pondered this. For beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations, then, it is the failure to scan for deception and vulnerability that is the act of inadvertently disguised evil. Said another way, the need to see the world as pure, because of one's own need for bathing in one's own creations and beauty, is then, perilously lazy and undisciplined. It is the act that inadvertently births evil by denial of evil.

Regarding the powers and abilities of the Valar, we might also take note of this comment from Section VI of "Myths Transformed" regarding Melkor:
"He was to make/devise/begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete." Before his descent into evil, Melkor was intended by Eru as an initiator. We can see how this was corrupted into impatience, and in Morgoth's own hierarchy Sauron took on a role similar to that which Eru intended for Manwë, completing projects Morgoth could not "in the furious haste of his malice."

I see, though, that Eru's will was not entirely undone or [not] not (double not) respected in regards to Morgoth and Sauron. [And a double 'not' has not the same implications as its inverse 'to be respected'. The former is 'the least worst choice of two seemingly ill choices' compared to the situation where one looks for 'the best choice']. In Morgoth's inverted universe, his variation on 'initiator', was begun by providing the inadvertent vigilance to the Valar to take more heed of their own creative acts. He forces the Valar to look at themselves by initiating destruction of their works. Melkor, by subversion, is then, the eternal Vala acting, in an inadvertent, unconscious role of self-sacrifice. For, all his works were initiating of an unmaking of works of the Valar, in order to, through Melkor's own vanity, provide a vanity mirror for the Valar, so they could see where their own vanity had influenced their own creations. As such, Melkor, the unconscious initiator of the Valar to take heed and rework their acts of mastery, after having them unmade sufficient times, such that their final works, (The Second Making in the Second Prophesy of Mandos) could be a world where more humility, and appreciation that all things are not always what they seem.

It is not entirely obvious how there is temporal event (effect to precede cause), where Melkor's works, basically, take effect by 'running time backwards'. If you move the 'starting point' about 'creation', to an unmaking of 'all there is', then Melkor's role and will, is effected through what was inspired in the Valar, through Melkor's acts.

He is, in the end, the pariah of creation, and bearer of all the suffering he manifested. I suspect Eru would, in a second making, manifest something significant with this, through a fusion of Melkor with some kind of 'flow' or energetic dead lock, to all other Valar, where they are forced into a symbiotic working relationship.

Greed dead locks--I call this unsight. Each expression of self-sacrifice must reconcile its greed-anti-self into an inverted flow of greed, such that greed results in birth and where greed is giving. This paradox of inter-relationships is easy to develop in a correction of the Valar and the way their consciousness is expressed.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

About whether or not scanning for deception, is essentially a 'negative' event, I have pondered this. For beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations, then, it is the failure to scan for deception and vulnerability that is the act of inadvertently disguised evil. Said another way, the need to see the world as pure, because of one's own need for bathing in one's own creations and beauty, is then, perilously lazy and undisciplined. It is the act that inadvertently births evil by denial of evil.

The most obvious example, and the one to which I assume you are referring, is Manwë failing to perceive the continuing evil in Melkor after his imprisonment. Isn't the fault with Melkor for dissembling his intentions? I don't see Manwë as someone who (intentionally or otherwise) is trying to revel in some self-satisfied perception of the world's goodness. I see a being capable of great love who wishes for his brother to be redeemed, and who has faith in Eru that good will out. I'm not sure what example you're referring to, though, when you talk about "beings that do not see the potential for the dark side in their own creations."

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I see, though, that Eru's will was not entirely undone or [not] not (double not) respected in regards to Morgoth and Sauron. [And a double 'not' has not the same implications as its inverse 'to be respected'. The former is 'the least worst choice of two seemingly ill choices' compared to the situation where one looks for 'the best choice']. In Morgoth's inverted universe, his variation on 'initiator', was begun by providing the inadvertent vigilance to the Valar to take more heed of their own creative acts.

Which is because Eru incorporates all things, good or evil, into the music, and from evil greater, unforeseen good arises, which is why Arda Healed would be a greater thing than Arda Unmarred. It would also be a different thing, hence there is no need for time to "run backwards." Arda Unmarred is not the same thing as Arda Healed. The latter proceeds from the former via Arda Marred (the intermediary stage). I assume I'm interpreting your rather complex thought processes correctly in providing that response...

[Ivriniel]

Although that is the most obvious example, it is one in a repetitious cycle. The Noldor, most appreciably, replicate the lapse in what I term "UN"sight--unsight. Unsight is the capacity of a being to discern how to position a greed-dead-lock in their crafting of items (The Rings), which would have prevented the disaster of the Mirdain. The Elves had very poorly developed Unsight--what an Elvish Creation looks like to The Corruptor.

Each creation by a being seemingly 'good' casts a shadow. Sauron and Melkor most cleverly (and stupidly) understood this. For example, I suspect that Sauron figured out what the Shadow side of the Elvish Spiritual World would be like in the metaphysical sense (Spectres, Shades, Wights and so on). This would seem to be that metaphysical dimension where life *runs out* from that plane, and back into the Void--the other way around. C.f. The Flame Imperishable - Life - From The Void. As such, Melkor's and Sauron's creations - discerned by Unsight - run the system the other way around. Metaphysical energy in the inverse, but in an inverse relationship to the Void when compared to life - The Two Trees, the Silmarils, etc.

So -- myy post looks more closely at what it means that a Vala such as Manwe was not, immediately, able to discern a way to work with Melkor. Or another way--the Valar were blind to the shadow relationships of their works with creation. And so, this is a Vanity. For, creators have the responsibility of knowing how their works look in the Shadow World. Without that Knowing, they create gross vulnerabilities in everything they create.

Another way to try to get the point across is that the Valar needed Melkor's gross, overt Vanity (to defile Eru's creations as toys), in order to see the Shadow Side of the Valar's denied Vanity. Melkor and Manwe are twin mirror image opposites. Two faces of existence, and the one cannot exist in some relationship with[out] the other.

However, how the relationship is manifested, does come down to the manner, mode, style and nature of consciousness, and to a preparedness to look at Melkor's inverse universe, without sacrificing the Flame Imperishable...

[Ivriniel]

@Zigur

Arda healed is, in this casting, compared to Arda unmarred is a good analogy. But is not quite the analogy, because in The Second Making, there is an expected reorganisation of The Powers, in a very fundamental sense, to prevent repetition of vulnerabilities the powers built into reality.

To elucidate, it's not "Manwe versus Melkor", in a divisionist casting of 'good and evil', but instead Manwe (The Flame Imperishable) conjoined to Melkor (The Flame Imperishable running in its Inverse--UNcreation--deadlock.

They have to establish means of satisfying seemingly opposed goals. The paradoxical joining of the two requires that seeming opposites coexist in reconciliation of opposites in all expressions of creation. I do not believe that simply 'teaching' Melkor how to 'behave' would ever be fruitful.

One way around the problem is have Melkor existing in a conjoined Universe where time always runs backwards. So, all his marring runs backwards--from the end of time to its beginning. And so, Manwe and Melkor handball each others manifestations in inverse time flow.

Another way around the problem is to establish creations where what is selflessness to one Vala *is* selfishness to the other. For example, the greed of a baby is what is behind the suckling of its mother's breast, but to the mother, her baby's healthy feeding greed is an expression of her love.....

[tom the eldest]

Each valar have their own powers

-manwe is leader of the valar,and a such,highest in authority,but not in power.he is also the king of the skies,and(i think)can command wind and cloud.

-aule,he specialised in crafting,and he is very similar to eru in term of understanding eru's way.he also can make living beings,but need eru to breathe life to them for them to be fully alive.

-yavanna can control the forest,and living things.

-tulkas is a stomping machine,being able to curbstomp melkor with ease.

- ulmo can control the seas,and every body of water that connected to the sea.

-namo, i know nothing abut him.

-the maiar follow their valar so they have similar power only lesser.

[mhagain]

This is all covered in the Valaquenta; example:

Námo the elder dwells in Mandos, which is westward in Valinor. He is the keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his Judgements only at the bidding of Manwë.

But you're not going to find a list of "powers" like in a D&D manual, if that's what you're looking for.