What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mhagain

OK, so her Master was Melkor, she came into the world when Melkor overthrew the Lamps, and that was the time when Melkor "gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service".

So that's what Ungoliant is: one of those spirits.

I agree on Ungoliant's origin. I think she was one of the Ainu who entered separately from the Valar. That independence carried over though and I wouldn't put her in the same class as the Balrogs and Sauron, "perverted" into becoming his servants. Ungoliant was more of a co-conspirator: acting in concert with Melkor temporarily, for her own gain. Serving him was not her intention.

[tom the eldest]

Ungoliant probably one of the void creature.it came from the void,Maybe a side creation of eru.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I agree on Ungoliant's origin. I think she was one of the Ainu who entered separately from the Valar.

Maybe but probably not.

There are at least two other examples of the Valar summoning "spirits" during the early days; first Manwë:

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and Earth should wither ere it flowered.

Then Yavanna:

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that Melkor has the same power, particularly in his early days when he was still strong.

Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service...

As to what these spirits are, Tolkien doesn't say but I consider it doubtful that they're Ainur. The Ainur were created outside of (and before) Eä, whereas these seem to me to have been created within Eä and are part of it ("spirits out of the halls of Eä").

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mhagain

As to what these spirits are, Tolkien doesn't say but I consider it doubtful that they're Ainur. The Ainur were created outside of (and before) Eä, whereas these seem to me to have been created within Eä and are part of it ("spirits out of the halls of Eä").

The spirits summoned by Manwë and Yavanna though seem to be lesser beings brought for service. Upon their arrival, they began to fulfill a specific purpose as ordered by the summoner. The same cannot be said for Ungoliant (or Tom Bombadil ).
That is why I see Ungoliant having a greater power with more independence of thought than the garden-variety Maia.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The spirits summoned by Manwë and Yavanna though seem to be lesser beings brought for service. Upon their arrival, they began to fulfill a specific purpose as ordered by the summoner. The same cannot be said for Ungoliant

I argue that it can.

I gave the quotes above, but I'll repeat them here too just to put them in context. First:

But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust

So when Ungoliant originally came, she wasn't an independent agent, she had a Master.

The obvious question is "who was that Master?" and we get the answer in Melkor's statement to her:

Thrice fool: to leave me first...

So to summarize the evidence:

• Ungoliant came to Arda (and remembering that Arda is just a part of Ea) at the time as Melkor overthrew the Lamps. I consider this beyond doubt.
• At this same time Melkor called spirits "that he had perverted to his service" from elsewhere in Ea. This is also beyond doubt as Tolkien explicitly wrote it.
• Ungoliant had a Master who she subsequently left, and that Master was Melkor. This is also beyond doubt: Tolkien wrote it.

So the reasonable conclusion is therefore: Ungoliant was one of those spirits.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mhagain

So to summarize the evidence:

• Ungoliant came to Arda (and remembering that Arda is just a part of Ea) at the time as Melkor overthrew the Lamps. I consider this beyond doubt.
• At this same time Melkor called spirits "that he had perverted to his service" from elsewhere in Ea. This is also beyond doubt as Tolkien explicitly wrote it.
• Ungoliant had a Master who she subsequently left, and that Master was Melkor. This is also beyond doubt: Tolkien wrote it.

So the reasonable conclusion is therefore: Ungoliant was one of those spirits.

It's really a small point of contention, as I agree with most of what you say. There is nowhere any definite proof though that Ungoliant's arrival in Arda was because of Morgoth: only that she did his bidding for a time. Even Sauron was not "called" by Melkor from the Void. With the quote you've given in full context:

And Melkor knew of all that was done, for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause; and far off in the darkness he was filled with hatred....

Melkor did not summon those spirits from Outside: they were there in Eë already, and though their corruption was unknown to the Valar, their identities were not.

Ungoliant, however, was an unknown entity to them.

For though the Valar did not yet understand fully what had befallen, they perceived that Melkor had called upon some aid that came from beyond Arda.

The Silmarilion Of the Flight of the Noldor

To me the evidence points to Ungoliant being a unique quantity where Melkor's servants were concerned. She was apparently more powerful, able to use her shadows to defeat and confound the Valar themselves, and also unknown to them. That is why I lean toward her being an Ainu who entered on her own, then allied herself with Melkor.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Melkor did not summon those spirits from Outside: they were there in Eë already, and though their corruption was unknown to the Valar, their identities were not.

Actually in the source texts these are two separate groups: group (1) was his spies in Aman who reported what had been done, group (2) was the spirits he then called to himself. The texts certainly don't give any cause to indicate that they were the same spirits in each group, and I'd encourage a re-read. If group (2) were called from elsewhere in Ea (i.e they weren't in Arda) it would be natural for the Valar to not know of them.

Did I give the impression that I was arguing that he summoned those spirits from outside of Ea? That's a mistaken impression: the texts are clear that he called them from within Ea; whether they were created within Ea or had previously arrived from outside is not stated however, and that seems to be the main crux.

It's also important to recognise the distinction between Arda and Ea. Arda is the solar system (with Imbar/Ambar/the Earth as it's central stage), Ea is all of creation. It's possible for something to be within Ea but outside of Arda (like the stars and other galaxies, for example) and Ungoliant is only stated to have been something beyond Arda.

Beyond that I'm inclined to go with whichever explanation requires the least amount of personal extrapolation, and that - to me - seems to be that Ungoliant was one of the spirits that Melkor called from within Ea. After all, if she had been an Ainu, it seems more, not less, likely that the Valar would have been previously aware of her: they were Ainur too, after all. On the other hand if she was a spirit created within Ea but outside of Arda, subsequently corrupted by Melkor, it matches with everything in the texts and creates fewer contradictions and doubts.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by mhagain

On the other hand if she was a spirit created within Ea but outside of Arda, subsequently corrupted by Melkor, it matches with everything in the texts and creates fewer contradictions and doubts.

I think this is an interesting idea. In Morgoth's Ring, essay II of "Myth's Transformed" mentions that "The Stars, therefore, in general will be other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene of the main drama of the conflict" and shortly after Varda is described as "one of the great Valar of Arda."
This seems to corroborate with the idea which I believe Professor Tolkien speculated upon elsewhere (although I cannot find it immediately), that other Ainur may have been at work in other, notionally less important, regions of the cosmos. I think that might add to the notion that Ungoliant could quite literally be an "alien" creature, a being deriving from within Eä but not from the Solar System of Arda.