could any of the kingdoms at middle earth attack the southern continents?

[tom the eldest]

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

I could ask, "which of Middle-earth's forces? And when?". But in fact I'm not sure it's possible anyway to answer this in the terms you want: "logistics, the amount of troops, the distance, etc". That requires statistical information that doesn't actually exist- sorry.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is I suppose possible that Gondor at the height of its maritime potency under the "Ship-Kings" would have had the capacity. But the desire?

Note though that even when Royal Gondor was decaying, after the Kinslaying, the Plague and the Wainriders, nonetheless the fleet and army Earnil sent to Arnor's aid, too late, was a still force of size and power almost unimaginable in the North.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It is I suppose possible that Gondor at the height of its maritime potency under the "Ship-Kings" would have had the capacity. But the desire?

Note though that even when Royal Gondor was decaying, after the Kinslaying, the Plague and the Wainriders, nonetheless the fleet and army Earnil sent to Arnor's aid, too late, was a still force of size and power almost unimaginable in the North.

The woods at the southern jungles maybe enough factor for gondor to conquerd the land.afterall,the need wood for everything.fuel,ships,houses,all of those are made of wood.and also,maybe there are precious gems,rich iron veins,and many more,even mithril in the south.that should be enough for th3 gondorians.

[Alfirin]

Don't forget all the Mumakil and such. We know elves sometimes used ivory, I imagine Gondorians would too. Plus since we are talking of jungles, some of those woods would probably be rich hardwoods; fine materials for the construction of ariticles and ornaments for the houses of the rich and noble (they have lebethron on thier home turf, which is sort of like ebony, but there are undoubtedly other rare and costly woods in ME). The Gondorians were already haughty by this period; a love of fine things would no doubt come with it.
Probably there would be a deep demand for spices and incenses as well. Considering themselves the inheritors of "True" Numenorian culture, I imagine the Gondorians would be big into fragrances, so they could pretend they were still living there and smelling fragrant breezes from Nisimaldar. So anything that smelled nice would probably be valuable there bigtime.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Don't forget all the Mumakil and such. We know elves sometimes used ivory, I imagine Gondorians would too. Plus since we are talking of jungles, some of those woods would probably be rich hardwoods; fine materials for the construction of ariticles and ornaments for the houses of the rich and noble (they have lebethron on thier home turf, which is sort of like ebony, but there are undoubtedly other rare and costly woods in ME). The Gondorians were already haughty by this period; a love of fine things would no doubt come with it.
Probably there would be a deep demand for spices and incenses as well. Considering themselves the inheritors of "True" Numenorian culture, I imagine the Gondorians would be big into fragrances, so they could pretend they were still living there and smelling fragrant breezes from Nisimaldar. So anything that smelled nice would probably be valuable there bigtime.

Nah,that would'nt work.news would have spreaded from the haradrim and corsairsnthat numenor has sunk and gondor is now much weaker than numenor.so when they pretend they still in numenor,the southern people will say"how are you still live in numenor when the island has sunk into the sea?".

[Alfirin]

Never discount the power of self-delusion. Obviosly, they DON'T live in Numenor anymore, and can't. And that is why the urge to PRETEND they did would probably be so strong. I suppose I put that wrong; it isn't so much a desire of Gondorians to LIVE in Numenor as much as a desire to MAKE Gondor seem as much LIKE Numenor as they can. Make thier buildings look like the old ones and make their houses SMELL like the old ones. I didn't mean that actual Numenorians had any paricular love of perfumes (they may have, or they may not). I meant that, in Numenor, the air probably smelled perfumed NATURALLY (since they had a whole huge forest of fragrant trees). Having the air smell like that probably became part of what the men of Numenor considered to be PART of being a Numenorian. So when they settled in Gondor, which DIDN'T have those fragrant forests, there would probably be a great demand for items they could use to replicate the smell. Especially since I recall that most of those trees were originally gifts from the Elves of Aman, so the sweet smell was probably equated with them (and thier immortality). All I meant was that Gondorians probably liked things that smelled nice when burned, and since there are probably things like that growing in the jungles of the South, They would be another item that the men of Gondor might want enough to justify trying to conquer. In our world, wars and conquests have been waged over spices, why not in ME?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

Tolkien does not provide enough information. From an historical perspective, lands are conquered so that natural resources can be exploited: whether that means fertile land to feed an expanding population; the availability of rich lodes of precious metal, iron ore or coal; some other tangible and tradeable goods (like rare spices, as someone mentioned); or sometimes the people of a certain region are exploitable goods for the slave trade.

We don't know. It is all conjecture. There is no mention of it. There are only possibilities based on real-world historic data.

[Zigûr]

Are we talking about Harad here? Which, incidentally, is actually still part of "Middle-earth." I assumed originally that this thread was specifically talking about the "Dark Land", which is to say the far Southern continent which appears on one of the 1930s Ambarkanta maps of Arda and might potentially be considered a quasi-Australian or Antarctican landmass. This is to say, a region about which we know literally nothing apart from a shape and two names, "Dark Land" and "South Land", the former of which can easily be confused with Mordor and the latter with Harad.

news would have spreaded from the haradrim and corsairs

Given that "Harad" is just a catch-all name for almost everything South of Gondor, aren't all the inhabitants of the "Southern Continent" technically Haradrim? If we're not talking about the "Dark Land," isn't the "Southern Continent" just Harad?
It's been stated that there was probably conflict between the Easterlings and the Haradrim and we know for a fact that Gondor and Rohan were forced to attack certain parts of Harad (and Rhûn) in the Fourth Age to defeat realms which refused to put aside their ancient enmity with the West even after the fall of Sauron. So if by "Middle-earth" we mean "parts of Middle-earth north of Harad" then yes they did, which must as such prove that yes, they could.

[tom the eldest]

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.
Now,gondor did manage to push the southrons way to their homeland but they never go as far as far harad and the southern continent.if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?the possibility is,a very large mumakil troops await them in far harad,and the gondorians then too afraid to attack them,knowing the risk.then they retreat.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.
Now,gondor did manage to push the southrons way to their homeland but they never go as far as far harad and the southern continent.if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?the possibility is,a very large mumakil troops await them in far harad,and the gondorians then too afraid to attack them,knowing the risk.then they retreat.

I suppose if we were playing with toy soldiers on a game board, that would be the case. Did it occur to you that there was simply nothing worthwhile Gondor wanted further south? They got what they required in Umbar and Near Harad, and nothing more interested them. There is nothing to support what you are saying in the text.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.

For the purposes of this discussion, or in general? Because Harad is definitely part of Middle-earth in the books.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Did it occur to you that there was simply nothing worthwhile Gondor wanted further south? They got what they required in Umbar and Near Harad, and nothing more interested them. There is nothing to support what you are saying in the text.

Exactly. Given how little we know about Far Harad, it's virtually impossible to speculate. Besides, conquering a little of Near Harad doesn't mean Gondor had the strength to conquer what might have been equivalent to, for all intents and purposes, the whole of Africa, even if they wanted to.
That being said I think the usefulness of elephant cavalry ought not to be overstated as well. As formidable as the Mûmakil were compared to their later descendants, they were not invincible, and elephants make for temperamental and inefficient beasts of war.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?

For what purpose? This is treating the situation like a game. It may be fiction, but it also adheres somewhat to the rules of history. Even within the bounds of Tolkien's narrative the Men of Gondor do not appear to have fought wars "for fun" or without reason.

[Belegorn]

It appears to me that the rise of the power of Númenor did coincide with their imperialism, their quest for domination. I think that perhaps they may have expanded had not they took such a big hit in the downfall of Númenor and the huge fleet that sailed to Aman. That's the loss of a lot of manpower. However, these were basically the Kings Men who were more of the conquering type than with the Faithful which is probably why even when Gondor became like Númenor in Middle-earth when its power waxed they were not pushing south or east, except of course the Ship-kings who took Umbar, and "the kings of Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court of its King." [Appendix A]

"their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth... Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers." [Sil., Akallabêth, p. 329]

In this quote were are told how before they were helpers, where they instructed Men how to grow and build things and were seen as gods. Although in Unfinished Tales it is said how when they first returned around 2nd Age 600 the Middle Men did see that they shared a kinship with the High Men.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

For what purpose? This is treating the situation like a game.

Erendis spoke of the Men of Númenor:

"Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world besides their own. They will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them... Númenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war." [Aldarion and Erendis, Part 2, ch. 2, p. 216-217]

It appears, at least in her view, that the Men of Númenor do hold it in some degree as sport, or a game. There has been mention of warlike lines among the nobles where it concerns the High Men.

[Alfirin]

Such is the way of the mighty of men, There are always those who will wrap themselves in metaphorical Gulon fur, who no matter how much they have, want more forever. And regretabbly, those kind of people often get great power, by getting the similary avaricios to join them. Remember what was supposedly written on Alexander the Great's tomb "Now this mound is big enough for he for whom the whole world was not."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien does not provide enough information. From an historical perspective, lands are conquered so that natural resources can be exploited: whether that means fertile land to feed an expanding population; the availability of rich lodes of precious metal, iron ore or coal; some other tangible and tradeable goods (like rare spices, as someone mentioned); or sometimes the people of a certain region are exploitable goods for the slave trade.

Or simply because it was the sort of thing kings felt they were expected to do. If they were good at it, they got nifty epithets like "the Great" or "the Conqueror."

(If you don't believe me, look at all the blood and treasure that centuries' worth of Persian and Roman emperors poured into taking Armenia off one another- despite the fact that there's not a damn thing there worth 'exploiting')

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Or simply because it was the sort of thing kings felt they were expected to do. If they were good at it, they got nifty epithets like "the Great" or "the Conqueror."

(If you don't believe me, look at all the blood and treasure that centuries' worth of Persian and Roman emperors poured into taking Armenia off one another- despite the fact that there's not a damn thing there worth 'exploiting')

True, WCH, but Armenia at least has habitable land, whereas a desert is a desert. The only difference in the sand of Near Harad and Far Harad is proximity

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

True, WCH, but Armenia at least has habitable land, whereas a desert is a desert. The only difference in the sand of Near Harad and Far Harad is proximity

Well, I wouldn't say Harad is entirely desert, since plainly it supports a population, one large enough to form and equip large expeditionary armies- and even to support Mumakil. It might rather be equated to North Africa in classical times, which was not yet all desert (and even had wild elephants)

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I wouldn't say Harad is entirely desert, since plainly it supports a population, one large enough to form and equip large expeditionary armies- and even to support Mumakil. It might rather be equated to North Africa in classical times, which was not yet all desert (and even had wild elephants)

An ironic comparision, considering that exploitation of North Africa's resources by larger foreign empires is often considered a major factor in North Africa BECOMING a desert ( several thousand years of plances like Greece, Ancient Palestine and Rome chopping down whole forests to provide themselves with timber for ships and buildings and collecting masses of the Barbary Lions and Atlas Bears for thier shows)