the elessar

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death (..)

Okay... but this very late text doesn't get into Eregion, so I guess you are making a general point with this example?

By the way, I said earlier in the thread: 'And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...'

... but there I did not recall correctly, as Galadriel committed Lorien to Amroth later in this text.

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

It does post date The Lord of the Rings, but the text about Amroth and Nimrodel post-dates Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, at least as originally written. Hammond and Scull date CG&C to possibly the late 1950s.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.'

Okay, but the citation you are responding to from my post was about the ousting of Galadriel as co-ruler and co-founder of Eregion. This is rather about the matter of Celebrimbor being later revised to a Feanorean, which is actually part of my argument.

Or are you merely pointing to the fact that this text was revised at some later point?

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil...

For clarity, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn these characters are noted as founding and ruling Eregion. Christopher Tolkien explained that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in this context in Of The Rings of Power and in Appendix B, both earlier works that CG&C.

... but-- the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states (...) This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Well again that's from CG&C. It's later than The Lord of the Rings, but it is not a late essay. So yes, this is the text in which the idea appears.

So far we have arrived at the start

I am stating I think this 'ousting' is not necessarily a given, for various reasons, only one of which concerns the rejection of Amroth as Galadriel's son.

The Amroth stuff is v. messy. Seems that by 1969 (earth time ), he's dumped as bro to Celebrian....Chris refers to The Battle of Dagorlad and Amdir as Amroth's dad.....*though*....the older Galadriel and Celeborn essay *was* modified, late.

Still, we don't know when CG&C was modified with respect to Celebrimbor or Amroth. You assign 'late' to this modification, but the Amroth tale is very late: 1969 or later, and for example, Tolkien had already published, a few years before this for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean. Thus the idea of Celebrimbor as a Feanorean, at least, existed before the very late Amroth texts.

Not all that compelling I admit, but CJRT seems to state rather certainly [see below] that Amroth as Galadriel's son was 'later' rejected, which I at least take to represent his opinion then, or perhaps what he feels is most likely given the scenario.

So, while Amroth/Amdir/Dagorlad/3rd millennium SA was written *later*, there were mods to the older script. Chris goes on to say (UT, p. 244) that he's not sure what was going to happen to Amroth, with implications for the bloodline to Galadriel and Celeborn.....possibly.

I don't recall the statement you are referring to here, but in the quote I recall CJRT seems pretty definitive about Amroth as Galadriel's son being a rejected idea: '... but whether he was or not, this view of his parentage was later rejected.'

Anyway, Amroth as Galadriel's son is only one part of my argument, and that argument only goes so far as to say that the idea of Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion isn't necessarily a given...

... so if we agree on that much (emphasis on necessarily), and if we agree that Olorin could have visited in the Second Age...