Elves and Ringwraiths

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ah, but the mystery of the Mouth goes deeper, doesn't it? Tolkien, in yet another example of his classic ambiguity, writes that "he [MoS] entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again." Now, is Tolkien referring to when Sauron returned to the Tower after the destruction of Numenor nearly 3000 years previously, or when Sauron reinhabited Barad-dur after his feigned flight from Dol Guldur?

Even if we discount the former and consider the latter (Sauron's retreat from Dol Guldur), MoS went into the service of Sauron about 68 years prior to the events at the Black Gate. Now, I am not sure Sauron took in child prodigies, but even if we allow for the laxity of Mordorion child labor laws, MoS could not be much younger than 20 years old at the time, but most likely older, as Sauron seemed to gravitate to greater men, warriors, sorcerers and kings in their prime. So, MoS had to be at least in his late 80s or more likely 90s when he rode out from the Morannon to confront Aragorn and Gandalf.

He did not appear to be a dotard or wizened as a man of that old age would be; on the contrary, he was described as "A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man." Tall and proud: a man in his prime. How can this be? If, as you mention, Inzil, that he was a product of Numenorean blood, how could he be a peer agewise to his adversary Aragorn, whose bloodline ran truer than any man of the time? Denethor, certainly a great man of Gondor whose bloodline was better than most, was unbent but still gray-bearded and mature-looking when he died at 89.

This brings me back to Tolkien referring to MoS as a "Black Numenorean". Again, I find this very intriguing. Tolkien did not say he "was of Black Numenorean descent" or that "his forefathers were Black Numenorean"; no, he says Mos "is" Black Numenorean, as if that were still a viable race. Given Gondor's utter victory against the Haradrim in T.A. 1050, and Tolkien's comment that "some were given over wholly to idleness and ease, and some fought amongst themselves, until they became conquered in their weakness by the wild men," that the Black Numenoreans as a race were diluted far more so than the Dunedain of Gondor. So, nearly 2000 years afterwards, there is still someone who can be identified as Black Numenorean? Isn't that strange? That's like someone in Italy claiming to be an Imperial Roman.

Anyway, ambiguity is the spice of Tolkien.

Hey there Morthoron,

I take your point in the flow of logic, inference, even of intrigue in the discussion about the Mouth of Sauron. I haven't traced and researched my materials about Black Numenoereans--ever--as a detailed, particular delve, but have read what materials there are on them in UT, and--to the extend I can bear reading some of the other stuff (I just can't get my head around readings where the Noldor are 'gnomes' and Valinor 'Kor')--I have some materials probably in those books.

I'll go and have a look and see what's there. But, off the cuff, as a 'habit' or tendency, Tolkien tended to interweave in LotR, the ideas about the 'fading' years of Middle Earth, but where some small aspect, feature, person or artefact for another time could make an appearance. As, for example, the last of the Elves of Valinor were packing house and catching the Last Bus on the Straight Road line to Elfy places we also had Shadowfax, a re-appearance of the 'nobler' former high horsy things, and 'one or two' Palantiri, the vestiges of the empire of a Numenorean-o-rama. We had an elfy blade or two from the First Age, a Blade or two from Arnor (Barrow Wight treasure), Shelob (a fairly big spider, getting a bit towards Ungoliante), and so on.

The 'Last Black Numenorean'? I dunno. As you say, 2000 years is a long time, and it's not like you ever see a Roman Legion marching down the street.

But, now and then, you do see a throw back to a former time, either culturally or genetically. I suppose, in the spirit of Shadowfax, The Mouth of Sauron could have come from that part of Umbar where there still dwelled an enclave of the equivalent of the Rangers of the North, or a scion of a Noble House, or even the product of a child of a captured Gondorian female Dunedain.....that is, the slave traders would probably have taken people from Gondor for that kind of thing. Perhaps they caught someone from Gondor who had a lot of Numenorean blood?

Ivriniel