The Inherent Incompatability of Morgoth and Sauron

[Nikkolas]

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

He had many lands east and south of Mordor under his sway. Whether he was their direct ruler or ruled through puppet monarchs, I'm not sure.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is a very random question but I referred to "Sauron's Empire."

Did he have one? I think he had one in the Second Age but in the Third Age he only had Mordor right?

It's a safe assumption that Sauron had the lands east and south of Mordor under his thumb. Though they may have had their own rulers, Sauron's will would have reigned.

x/d with Andsigil

[Sarumian]

If we are going to make a comparison between to evil (negative) powers, it make sense, I believe, to understand their opposition to the power of Eru which was the source of their own existence.

It seems, Melkor was given powers to operate with any kind of substance and was able to shape it into virtually anything (his only predicament was light, which is not a substance - Melkor could shut it out or steal it but could not call it into being out of nothing). A bigger gap between Melkor and Eru lies in their relationship to time. Melkor, with all his powers, was a temporal (albeit an immortal) creature who apprehends the past, the present and the future roughy in a way we do. He lives in Time. For Eru, on the contrary, all moments of time are "present" simultaneously. Time exists within Eru's mind. I would roughly liken Eru to an author of a story, in which all others serve just as characters. While Hamlet was facing his challenges and choices (to be or not to be...), Shakespeare already knew how it was going to end...

The destiny of Ea was presented to Ainur as the Music, which they were able to enrich, developing the theme given by Eru; Melkor even succeeded to bring in a theme of his own, which contradicted the main one, and subsequently, caused a discord. It all finished, however, on Eru's terms: Melkor's theme was harmonised with the rest of the Music. Then Ainur were offered a chance to see the music they created embodied in a Universe (Ea) and even participate in its creation, development and demise (and what is music if not a well-temered time? ).

Now we have a string of questions:

How did Ainur, Melkor and Sauron in particular, understand the meaning of the Music?
What kind of idea of Eru did they possess?

What I mean is: did Melkor seriously think he was able to amend the providence, i. e. to re-write the future (the future, that was as present for Eru as all other moments in Time)? Or did he come to a conclusion that his theme was the destiny of Ea, that the latter should be shaped accordingly, that the final harmony means only that voices of other Ainur should yield to his tunes?

What I think is that if he ever had an intention to destroy Arda completely, he had not gained it until the very late stage of his fight. It seems, he wanted to re-shape Arda according to his plan (we don't know what it was) and struggled to remove all obstacles (including Ea's existing constitution if necessary).

I wonder what Sauron could think about the Music. I don't believe he could ever forget it as it must have made the most profound impression on his soul ever. Thus, Melkor needed to work hard to persuade Sauron that his (Melkor's) plan can bore a fruit. It is also very difficult to accept that Sauron could believe that Eru literarily abandoned Ea: Eru's nature doesn't simply allow him to abandon anything that does exist. Either Sauron had a very faulty idea of Eru or he believed that taking responsibility for Middle Earth is The Way - something that Eru would approve or at list tolerate. At least during his brief repentance, if it was a sincere move.

Finally, the situation seduces me to make one more comparison. If Tolkien is "Eru" of his universe, we, readers, resemble children of Eru (men), who live a short but bright life (reading The Hobbit or The Lord of The Rings) and then are taken to Eru to listen to his music and learn the truth about Ea that lies beyond our ordinary experience (reading Silmarillon). And I like this thought

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I wonder what Sauron could think about the Music. I don't believe he could ever forget it as it must have made the most profound impression on his soul ever. Thus, Melkor needed to work hard to persuade Sauron that his (Melkor's) plan can bore a fruit. It is also very difficult to accept that Sauron could believe that Eru literarily abandoned Ea: Eru's nature doesn't simply allow him to abandon anything that does exist. Either Sauron had a very faulty idea of Eru or he believed that taking responsibility for Middle Earth is The Way - something that Eru would approve or at list tolerate. At least during his brief repentance, if it was a sincere move.

"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more." (emphasis mine)
Sauron's impression of Eru was not based on rational thought. Rather, in his corruption, he had (so far as I read it) concocted a false understanding of Eru's mind which conveniently permitted his own schemes.
"...Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
"Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure."
So while Sauron participated in the Music and was aware of Eru, we must focus on that phrase: "according to his measure." Sauron was mighty among the Maiar, but not that mighty in the grand scheme. I would argue that his understanding of Eru, and of the Music, was limited (but at the same time greater than his master's). I restate again Gandalf's remark that Sauron judged all things "according to his wisdom" and from Morgoth's Ring the observation: "His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the Motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman."
Sauron probably did not see himself as "corrupt" or "evil" because he inevitably scrutinised others as if they had the same personality as himself; he saw himself as the norm. I believe this is how he could convince himself that Eru had abandoned Arda.
Did Morgoth need to "work hard to persuade Sauron"? I see no evidence of it personally. Quite the reverse, in fact. If you were as single-minded as Sauron seemingly was I think it would seem entirely rational to side with the most powerful party. He may not have understood the Music well enough to comprehend the futility of supporting Morgoth, even if he understood the Music better than Morgoth did himself. Perhaps the Music itself in its complexity contributed significantly to Sauron's obsession with order and how everything might be weaved into a single, perfect pattern. I read Sauron's greatest weakness as his perfectionism.

[Sarumian]

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

Therefore Sauron perceived the music as an outline rather than something that had decided Ea's destiny. That were the prerequisites for Sauron's delusion, esp. his idea that Eru can abandon Ea.

Well, it seems at some point Sauron decided he had a better understanding of matters than Melkor. The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

I think the point is that Sauron assumed Eru no longer cared, not that he thought that Eru's power was in any way limited. Sauron knew Eru's power. He simply did not know his mind, but nonetheless made assumptions about it. As Professor Tolkien states in 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion', "Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda)." I don't think Sauron had any doubts about what Eru could do, but he made a number of assumptions about what Eru would do, and not necessarily large ones given how uninvolved Eru apparently was.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

I just noticed this and wanted to offer an answer while I had it in mind. There's so much discussion of Sauron on this forum I think it's enlightening to have as much material to hand as possible. To quote "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" regarding Sauron's behaviour:

"Therefore when Ëonwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."

Sauron was Morgoth's first lieutenant. That does not, however, change the fact that in the heirarchy of Morgoth's 'realm' (such as it was) everyone apart from Morgoth himself, regardless of rank, was Morgoth's slave. On the other hand, we receive no mention, I believe, of any participation on Sauron's part in the Great Battle. So I think Sauron may have been capable of abandoning Morgoth, but that he was so deeply entrenched in evil that this was only really possible at the point where it was a choice between supporting Morgoth and his own survival. Being evil and serving Morgoth (the individual) were not the same thing by the end of the First Age, which I think might go some way to explaining how Sauron persisted with Morgoth until the time came to strike out on his own. Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

I agree with you here. When I first read the first part of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", I remembered what Satan said in John Milton's poem Paradise Lost to his followers, after their failed rebellion led them to be cast out of Heaven, and into Hell:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (Book I, lines 161-3)