Glorfindel reincarnated

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Elrond and Arwen are always called “Half-elven” makes sense, considering the different destinies of Elves and Men. But where does Tolkien explicitly state that neither Elrond or Arwen were not in any sense Eldar? In their genealogical origins Elrond and Arwen were part Maia. So of course Tolkien would not generally state that Elrond was an Elda pure and simple, because he wasn’t. Tolkien does mention that Elrond preferred to trace his descent from Thingol rather than from Eärendil and Elwing.

You appear to me to be over-emphasizing that the name Half-elven (Pereldar) is different from Elven (Eldar), something no-one has denied. Why do you wish to emphasize this difference is if it matters for the purpose of this discussion of Glorfindel?

Tolkien states emphatically that Arwen was not one of the Eldar.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights"-Letter 345

Another example is Arwen tells Aragorn the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar. They are not part of the Eldar.

"Do not wonder! For the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar."-LOTR

It was just an example of how Tolkien is usually very precise with the words he uses. Glorfindel was not one of the elves, who remained in ME, but returned to help in the fight against Sauron. So it would be wrong to place him alongside the other elves that did stay.

[Willemijn]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Not to split hairs, but in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Tolkien said of Galadriel:

A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

That's of those who remained in the 3rd Age. While she was also the mightiest of the female Eldar, which makes her veritably angelic in power, it's quite another matter to say she was at the very pinnacle of the all-time list of mighty Eldar. Feanor made the Silmarils. He also fought (and presumably beat) several balrogs before being killed by Gothmog. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth, himself. Eärendil killed Ancalagon. At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

That's not to diminish or demean her in any fashion, by the way- I'm a big fan of Galadriel's particularly feminine brand of latent power.

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that

his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice

of Galadriel it is said that she is

unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.



Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that of Galadriel it is said that she is

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

Galadriel's power certainly seems to be above all the other Noldor princes/ladies with the exception of Feanor, Earendil and maybe Finrod.

That being said Glorfindel is a very special case and the quotes about him put him in his own league. Before his death, Galadriel was probably a greater power, but not after he returned.

Glorfindel having the special responsibility of being sent back to help against Sauron speaks volumes for his power. Even Tolkien had to explain exactly why he had an air of power so unique for an elf.

Luthien with her divine heritage stands alone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel's power certainly seems to be above all the other Noldor princes/ladies with the exception of Feanor, Earendil and maybe Finrod.

I would think the possibility for an Elf to be reincarnated after the destruction of the physical body would hinge upon the personal request of the Elf,and his/her "worthiness".

One thing I've wondered is why Glorfindel was chosen for re-embodiment over, say, Finrod. Was Glorfindel's fight with the Balrog somehow more of a sacrifice than Finrod's contest with Sauron? Was the decision tied to the relative degree of inferiority of Glorfindel vs. the Balrog, ie Glorfindel was taking more of a risk?

[Willemijn]

It's harder to define what he means by greatness, but it is a combination of social standing, achievement, power and respect.

Not so sure that´s right, so Feanor and Galadriel back in Aman, being described as the greatest had better social standing and respect, than say Ingwe? For me greatness= spiritual power and the things you stated to some degree. I think that "Greatness" for the most part is something the elf is born with, some gift and not something that elf can achieve in life

That being said Glorfindel is a very special case and the quotes about him put him in his own league. Before his death, Galadriel was probably a greater power, but not after he returned.

So you think Glorfindel is the mightiest, spirituel most powerful in existence (after Feanor and Luthien dead)?!?! Even Earendil? I also don´t think that Earendil is spiritual more powerful than Galadriel, to my knowlege there is no quote to claim that.

I think IF Gorfindel would be standing out that much Tolkien would have mentioned that more direct and not only stating that his spiritial power has been greatly enhanced and at the same time stating that Galadriel was not to beat in spiritual power.
I think many elves that were rebodied would have that special air of power and almost angelic glow, only Glordindel happend to return.

And by the way Inziladun, Finrod was re-embodied. He walks with his father in Eldamar.

Well, more important to you. However, arms comprise one aspect of power, wisdom another, crafting another, and song/magic yet another. Taken together, she doesn't reach the peak of the pyramid occupied by some others.

OK, maybe she wasn´t that good a warrior but who was better in wisedom or song/magic (besides Luthien)? I think in wisedom, songs/magic, she reaces the peak of the pyramid, maybe even in crafting (besides Feanor) if we take the starglass and the mirror into consideration.

Tolkien only describing her as the mightiest Noldor to remain the 3rd Age means there was at least one other Noldor more powerful.

I think in this case mightiest also means poticital power, she is only mightiest after Gil Galads dead, cause he was the king, and she wasn´t more influential than he was, but after he died, Galadriel had that sort of might Gil Galad had, only with less elves. But I don´t think that Gil Galad was spiritual more powerful than her.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

Not so sure that´s right, so Feanor and Galadriel back in Aman, being described as the greatest had better social standing and respect, than say Ingwe? For me greatness= spiritual power and the things you stated to some degree.

The quote was not based on what they had accomplished at the time, but on their entire lives. Ingwe for all his greatness, respect and power still did not actually achieve as much, because he stayed in Valinor.

So you think Glorfindel is the mightiest, spirituel most powerful in existence (after Feanor and Luthien dead)?!?! Even Earendil? I also don´t think that Earendil is spiritual more powerful than Galadriel, to my knowlege there is no quote to claim that.

Yes Glorfindel was the mightiest elf in ME when he returned. There are many quotes about Earendil's power, which dwarfs everyone else.

Here is a simple comparison. Ancalagon the Black was more powerful than Melian, but in the end Earendil killed it. Earedil was called the mightiest of the Half-Elven, which means he was more powerful than Elrond an equal of Galadriel at the very least.

I think IF that would be the case Tolkien would have mentioned that. I think many elves that were rebodied would have that special air of power and almost angelic glow, only Glordindel happend to return.

And by the way Inziladun, Finrod was re-embodied. He walks with his father in Eldamar.

Yes, but Glorfindel was an especially pure elf and he stands alone in having saved the life of Earendil. Unlike many and possibly all the other Noldor princes he left Valinor only due to kinship and loyalty to Turgon. His situation was unique, because in saving Earendil he allowed the Valar's plans to come to fruition.
OK, maybe she wasn´t that good a warrior but who was better in wisedom or song/magic (besides Luthien)? I think in wisedom, songs/magic, she reaces the peak of the pyramid, maybe even in crafting (besides Feanor) if we take the starglass and the mirror into consideration.[/QUOTE]
No she doesn't. Her displays of magic are not above those of Elwing, Feanor, Elrond or arguably her brother Luthien.

The statements you have made are completely made up.

In Lore Elrond was the mightiest.
In foresight it was Cirdan.
At music it was Daeron.
At crafting it was Feanor.

She is not even a close second in either of these categories.

Ironically Galadriel was probably a better warrior than she was a craftsman, singer or healer.

I think in this case mightiest also means poticital power, she is only mightiest after Gil Galads dead, cause he was the king, and she wasn´t more influential than he was, but after he died, Galadriel had that sort of might Gil Galad had, only with less elves. But I don´t think that Gil Galad was spiritual more powerful than her.

No it's not, because the statement was before Gil-galad died. Galadriel never had the position that Gil-galad as King. Even after Gil-galad's death the most influential person amongst the elves would be Elrond.

[Nerwen]

I believe the Galadriel/Feanor quotation referred to several times, but never posted, is one of these two:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

(Both from UT, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn.)

And now, a general comment: it’s best not to get too combative over Tolkien’s use of superlatives. Yes, at some points he'll describe a given character as “the wisest”, or “the fairest” or “the greatest”– but at other times he describes other characters the same way. No doubt– writing as he did over a period of decades– he sometimes forgot what he’d said previously– or else he just didn't mean these statements in the spirit of utter literalism in which people often appear to take them.

I know some see ways out of these apparent contradictions, but those seem to me to rely on hair-splitting and not-very-well-founded assumptions. For example, where is the evidence that Tolkien always meant completely different things by “might” and “greatness”? I just feel there’s quite a bit of circular reasoning going on here.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

The quote I copied specified the Third Age, not "of all time". You'll have to dig up the quote.

Why, because she´s female?

So many people reflexively go here. (Sigh...)

You might have missed where I've declared myself a Galadriel fan, btw.

Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

Well, more important to you. However, arms comprise one aspect of power, wisdom another, crafting another, and song/magic yet another. Taken together, she doesn't reach the peak of the pyramid occupied by some others.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

It depends on your definition of wisdom, I would say. In terms of knowledge and lore, he had the ability to craft the Silmarils. 'Nuff said. However, if you limit the definition of wisdom to mere common sense, then he's lacking.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

And so she is extraordinary. No doubt about it. I agree 100%.

You asserted, however, that "she [Galadriel], Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda". That's a bit different than being extraordinary.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

You asserted, however, that "she [Galadriel], Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda". That's a bit different than being extraordinary.

Tolkien in more than one place has said that Galadriel was the second greatest of the Noldor or the greatest of the Eldar apart from Feanor and Luthien.

That being said greatness and power are not interchangeable for Tolkien.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien in more than one place has said that Galadriel was the second greatest of the Noldor or the greatest of the Eldar apart from Feanor and Luthien.

That being said greatness and power are not interchangeable for Tolkien.

That makes more sense. And it reinforces the quote I posted about her being "mightest" of the Noldor in the 3rd Age.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

That makes more sense. And it reinforces the quote I posted about her being "mightest" of the Noldor in the 3rd Age.

When Tolkien talks in terms of power or the best he uses mightiest. For example Beleg was the mightiest woodsman to ever live, Maglor the second mightiest singer etc.

It's harder to define what he means by greatness, but it is a combination of social standing, achievement, power and respect.

Tolkien only describing her as the mightiest Noldor to remain the 3rd Age means there was at least one other Noldor more powerful. Feanor for certain, but I am not sure the other Noldor princes were. There is no definitive answer, for this though. Earendil for sure was more powerful, but he does not count as a Noldor.