Saruman - The Greatest Failing of the LOTR Adaptation

[Mithalwen]

I think that Tolkien did see the Istari being Maia as angelic beings, and they are incarnate, but Gandalf makes it clear that he is a messenger and servant of a greater power so the Jesus comparison is perhaps too strong though I am not much of a theologian (there are some around though so you may get a more erudite answer). Saruman could be seen as a Fallen Angel like Satan in Paradise lost. I would contest that evil is so black and white in the Silmarillion. Morgoth yes but there are plenty of his adversaries who are not whiter than white.

[Nikkolas]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I would contest that evil is so black and white in the Silmarillion. Morgoth yes but there are plenty of his adversaries who are not whiter than white.

I'm not sure what you mean here. What I said in my post was that The Sil had a lot more gray area in terms of morality than LOTR. As you noted, many of the Elves who opposed Morgoth were selfish, vain and some were just plain jerks. In addition there were all kinds of "vllains" ranging from Melkor down to poor Maeglin. By contrast, I think Saruman and maybe Grimm are the only bad guys in LOTR who receive such understanding while their fellows on Team Evil are handled rather simplistically. Sauron by this point just wants power for its own sake and look at what Gandalf said of him and Hobbits; that as worthless as hobbits were to him, Hobbits enslaved and miserable would make him happier than hobbits free and happy.

Saruman meanwhile is more akin to early Second Age Sauron in mentality I think in that he has fallena nd desires power but he at least believes he wants to use that power for good.

And fair enough on the Jesus analogy. I figured it ws a stretch anyway.

[Boromir88]

Why did the movies turn Saruman into Sauron's toady? True, he was corrupted by Sauron's will, and his machinations ultimately served Sauron, but that was never his intent. He is a peer of Sauron cosmically speaking and he was very cunning in his own right. Moreover, he was an interesting villain.

I definitely agree with him being an interesting villain. Saruman is indeed, fascinating and in many ways you can say he is a scientist, breaking down things and studying the parts...although it turns out his motivations for his research is to just gain more power, not to have deeper understanding or to really help anyone.

Although, I don't think the movies did a bad job with his portrayal. Christopher Lee is an immensely talented actor as well as being an avid Tolkien reader, he knew how to play the part to show Saruman was after the Ring for himself, not to be Sauron's "toady." There is a scene in FOTR when Saruman is in a room by himself after using the palantir and an orc stumbles in asking "what orders from Mordor?" Lee's body language is slumped and it's almost as if he's sick, but it's definitely portraying the conflict that at one point Saruman had to go through in his personal corruption. He feels now the charade is up, he can't realign with the West because he spilled his true intentions to Gandalf, and he starts feeling the vice he's caught in trying to play Sauron as a fool.

There is one version told in UT: The Hunt for the Ring, where the Witch-King pays Saruman a visit and it creeps him out enough to try to go talk to an imprisoned Gandalf again about joining together to defeat Sauron, but by this point Gandalf had escaped. Anyway, I just meant that I think FOTR and TTT portrayed Saruman well mostly because Christopher Lee knows how to play his roles.

Your point about his botched ROTK disappearance (and death in the extended edition) is spot on though. Actually, it angered Lee enough to publicly say that he was boycotting the extended edition premiere. I mean it was clear from the beginning that PJ wasn't going to film the Scouring of the Shire, which was fine and understandable in my opinion. But because of where TTT ended, it left a significant loose end to tie up in ROTK and that's how the beginning of ROTK felt like.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry, iread that back to front. My library session was timing out... I think though that while more characters are basically good in LOTR many have to face the ethical decision to disobey orders.

[Mithalwen]

Ahem, inzil Jesus was reembodied and sent back for albeit a short time according to scripture.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Ahem, inzil Jesus was reembodied and sent back for albeit a short time according to scripture.

Yes, but not to finish his mission. That's what I meant to get across.

[Juicy-Sweet]

I think Sauron is still an interesting villain. Mainly because in spite of his godlike powers he has many moments of únsecurity and fear.

Plus I always wondered if the eye hovering about Barad-Dur is his body, or if he has a body sitting on a throne somewhere and his spirit is somehow incarnated in the eye as well.

I like it is left so open - the whole idea of the chief villain being an eye hovering above his own castle, presumably only communicating by telepathy with his minions seems just weird. Yet it works. It would also work if the eye was maybe a technical-magical contraption, or something he could possess when he wanted to while his body would then sit lifeless in his throne.

[Belegorn]

That sounds like the mind-transfer Jutsu that Ino uses when she possesses someone else.

http://youtu.be/aUCvGs4YpUU