Of Domination and Tools

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would say that Sauron planted the seed, but the thoughts grew in both of them independently of him and of each other.

With Denethor, the source of that kind of thinking is a basic mistrust of other people. Instead of allies helping each other, you see one using the other, and maybe even misusing him. Denethor's mistrust is directly related to his nightly reality shows (how proper to name it such...). He grew to trust none of Gondor's allies, no strangers, not even all of his own people. And, on top of that, Gandalf did not seem to be a figure that would easily invite his trust - he knows a lot, he does not talk of everything, he brings bad news, etc. It's easy then to go to the next step and say that Gandalf is using Gondor for his own hidden purposes.

And to be fair to Denthor, a lot of what Gandalf does say isn't exactlty designed to inspire confidence in him as being one who has either Denethor or Minas Tirith as high priorties. He does say"The rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come" We can see that Gandalf simply has bigger concerns, but to Denethor who has Gondor and ONLY Gondor as his concern it can easily sound along the lines of "I don't care if you and all you hold dear burns, in my eyes all of it is all but worthless." Part of the reason that Denethor is so araid of being Gandalf tool is that, on some level, that is exactly what Gnadalf wants of him, to do as her says without question, even knowing that Gandalf has no qualms about sacraficing him, his son and even his legacy in the pursuit of his goals. Gandalf basically demands the deepest level of blind faith. For someone like Denethor that's totally agaisnt his personality.

[Zigûr]

Something that might be worth considering is that Saruman and Denethor are both "politicians" to a much greater extent than other leaders in The Lord of the Rings. Saruman is full of hollow political spin: "There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means." And his plan to manipulate Sauron I think conforms to this as well.

Professor Tolkien observes that Denethor was "tainted with mere politics... It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate", hating Sauron not because he was an evil being who, morally speaking, had to be opposed, but simply because he threatened Gondor's statehood. By contrast he remarks that "the Elves destroyed their own polity in pursuit of a 'humane' duty" by allowing the Three to fail. (Letter 241)

I think Saruman and Denethor are both leaders who had lost perspective and were not interested in the 'big picture'. Was this a symptom of Sauron's influence? We know that he believed "Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more" (Morgoth's Ring), so maybe he himself had lost perspective in the same way. All three of them, I think, treated many other people like tools rather than individuals with inherent value, which might explain why they were keen to accuse others of doing the same, especially Gandalf who was the mutual opponent in many respects of all of them, even Denethor from an ideological perspective. Observe that the Mouth of Sauron, too, another of the 'political' characters (along with Smaug in The Hobbit, I might argue) also accuses Gandalf of manipulation while he himself is toying with the Captains of the West. It may have been a limitation of all of them that, incapable of true altruism, they were equally incapable of recognising it in others.

But I think it might come down to an idea which is borne out in a study of how Sauron's early utopianism was perverted so easily into tyranny and evil: because it exacerbated one's tendency to view other people as either tools or obstacles (thus forgetting that the designs were originally meant to be in the interests of everyone, which is to say the people about whom they not longer cared beyond their instrumentation). Gandalf was an obstacle, but an obstacle of sufficient power that they viewed him as being of the same nature as they were. I daresay Denethor and Saruman, who allegedly did encounter each other in the Stones, also harboured similar feelings about each other.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It may have been a limitation of all of them that, incapable of true altruism, they were equally incapable of recognising it in others.

I agree with this to a large extent, but I also think that in their representations of Gandalf to others there was a lot of intentional misrepresentation and lying going on.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I agree with this to a large extent, but I also think that in their representations of Gandalf to others there was a lot of intentional misrepresentation and lying going on.

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

This is most obvious when Denethor has fallen into madness:

‘Hope on then!’ laughed Denethor. ‘Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purposes of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.

‘But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir. I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dastard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’

That Gandalf is indeed ready to support Aragorn’s claim is proof to Denethor that Gandalf cannot be trusted. At the least, Denethor might think, Gandalf should have been open and honest about his support of Aragorn. But Gandalf has not been so and has forbidden Pippin to speak of Aragorn to Denethor.

As Treebeard has said, “I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me.”

Denethor is very plain about what being on his side means:

‘I would have things as they were in the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of the City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’

And, indeed, Denethor follows his declared path to his death, in part because has been deceived by Sauron, but only in part.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I would agree about Saruman, but I think Denethor genuinely believes what he says of Gandalf. Maybe at some point in the past he convinced himself that Gandalf means no good, and at that point it would have been a deliberate misrepresentation, but now Denethor truly sees Gandalf as someone who could use him as a tool (and yes, he could use him as a tool) and who isn't trustworthy.

In the Appendix Aragorn and Denethor agreed on everything except on their feelings about Gandalf/Saruman. I think before even his use of the palantir Denethor was not really in Gandalf's corner. After his use of the palantir I think he saw the return of the king, and knew who Aragorn was and grew to mistrust Gandalf.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In the Appendix Aragorn and Denethor agreed on everything except on their feelings about Gandalf/Saruman. I think before even his use of the palantir Denethor was not really in Gandalf's corner. After his use of the palantir I think he saw the return of the king, and knew who Aragorn was and grew to mistrust Gandalf.

Actually, I think the Appendix states that Aragorn/Thorongil and Denethor were only at variance in the counsels they gave to Denethor's father, Ecthelion, in one area: Aragorn urged Ecthelion to trust Gandalf, and Denethor was for Saruman.
That seems to me another indication that Saruman and Denethor were indeed likely to have been actively communicating with one another leading up to the War of the Ring.